Last night Draugluin had a discussion on the OOC comm about a possible global lawsys. Posted here so that everyone has a chance to read and comment on it.
I want Sicarius' babies.
I get a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach when I read you guys go on about more and more complex solutions.
But then what about our forge? Couldn't you easily get to it where it takes an army to get to the free race one?
A level 10 sindar could just as easily be made, to explore Lothlorien.
There could be limits, a reduction in move speed the farther you go into enemy lands.
Kanex makes sense with what he says...
Part of the argument is that the map should be open to everyone, but in fact, it is, if you have characters on both sides, which is going to happen for a huge portion of the mud anyways. People want to try ER's as well as their FR's.
I still like the idea of losing BP's and regions, etc, and making Gondor/Pelennor/Osgiliath the interactive area between the races...it makes sense, fits in themes, don't need global lawsys, and the random killing for the most part goes away.
Please don't do this.
The current system has problems, but a global lawsys is not the solution. I don't want to stand wondering if I want to pay 2k in fines just to make go away this level 10 haradrim that just logged on and decided to explore Caras Galadon.
Plus, there will be several things to look at and adapt/fix with a global lawsys, some people have already mentioned some.
I believe a better solution lies on a workout of something from dev57, encourage the battle in the areas around Gondor and Mordor(the ones mentioned in dev57), as it should be, making the other areas safe mostly. Re-work the concept of region control, to focus the heat of the battle in these areas. Something to prevent/discourage going into deeper areas.
I don't agree with this idea 'open the map for everyone'. I don't want ERs in Lothlorien or Thranduils walking freely, nor should them want us wandering in Kadar or Outpost, and it is logic.
Your mom has antics, Sicarius. :p
Most of the fun I continue to have is a direct result of the antics of my friends and I.
I still think it's horribly ridiculous and childish of most people who are **still around** this game saying that it's no longer fun and doing this change will make it fun again. I, for one, have never seen this place not be fun. The changes in this game going from entirely FR, to the original mission based ERs, to removing them, to bringing back the new system of ERs to 'enhanced/crappy' ERs vs. FRs version 2.0 has been ridiculously awesome, and with the removal of the battlepoint system/failkill (which I actually don't like, since my life as an ER has become exponentially more stagnant)/opening up the entire battlefield again will bring just another level of excitement to the game.
If this game was exactly the same as when I started playing, save for more areas to explore, I would have left this game years ago. So what if it's not the same game you came here with, so what if it might be harder for your particular profession for a mere couple of days until you get used to it? So what if you're no longer immune to actually dying/having a challenge thrown at you because you memorized a game who hope would never change to let you stay in your thrown? And so what if the game isn't perfectly thematic? This game is roughly 2% thematic... the rest should be geared towards having a good time, which, by the looks of it, this will seem to accomplish that. Having to rethink your strategy to this game is what keeps it exciting, and I for one welcome a new change no matter how it turns out. Give me a chance to refine those skills I never had. :)
I'd also just like to state the fight in golding between ERs and FRs too. I levelled a civilian from 1-20 quicker than I levelled my necromancer from 1-19. Although, it was slightly easier to go from 16-18 on my ER than 16-18 on the civilian. The reason animal-killing as an ER is so quick and efficient is really because only one person is ever killing every single animal spawned, rather than, let's say on the FR side, different guilds or persons trying to clean out Linhir/Loth Tree at the same time (or whatever your choice killing-grounds is.) If more than two people are ever trying to gold animals at once, you'll find you can make one or two good clean sweeps of an area before it becomes entirely useless for, at minimum, a good few hours -- exactly like you'd find in Linhir/MT/Loth Tree runs. And with the number of Necromancers declining rapidly, it's probably a slightly slower process for ERs than FRs, just because FRs have more to choose from (and yes, there is a TON to choose from, just get creative.) If ERs are in competition over the few nice NPCs that are relatively painless, NPCs disappear very, very quickly.
Oh, and please, don't come to the ER side, I like the imbalance of numbers. :)
also, if failkill is replaced by a lawsys. i think a lot of ERs _and_ FRs will be going on rampages (though mostly ERs).
i think that 'going wanted' could be a big problem though, since you could hide more easily for the people looking for you. specifically, if i went and killed Bob the FR and went wanted for it, i wouldn't think that any ER would come after me (especially if there was no ERvER lawsys)
FRvFR and ERvFR lawsys would be ok, but i don't want a ERvER lawsys.
I guess I kind of thought of that too...maybe there aren't enough.
Not enough ERs. There's more targets when it's guild vs guild. I imagine the guilds will still be at war with legions anyway, though. Why not?
Pallasch, I'm not saying that they weren't (although I am just not a huge fan of them, personally), but why can't that be moved to guild vs legion wars, or serving guild wars, once failkill and regions are removed?
Would be more thematic in the grand scheme of the game...just what I'm thinking.
Screw that Kelos, guild wars used to be one of the most exciting parts of the game. It's a shame they'll never be like they used to be (unless fade or something close to it is brought back as well).
I don't things will be safer at first, in fact, I think with this change, killing will increase for a bit as it becomes easier to access specific targets that are hard to reach usually unless they appear at a BP or contested region.
My hope is that eventually, with fines and lawsys, the game can return to what it used to be...more character and role play focused, instead of just a pk-fest.
I think it would be nice if the FR guilds took the last year or two with ER's, and remember it and focus on still defending the Free Races, and not going back to warring with each other. Because you will be able to war against ER's just as easily.
*shrug*
Hmm..moral guys, pls consider something:
Right now, we are on the same side and you know you can trust me. I don't remember letting anyone down (with a certain ugly exception, I aplogize once again to my party).
Now, when a global lawsys is implemented, there will be no side to be on anymore!!! While I definitely made alot of friends since I came back, there are A LOT of morals I don't know nothing about/ don't care about. What makes you think all this won't end up with me going back to a certain guild to help its warmongering members destroy another (random) moral guild just because we like guild wars? Fines? Fines stopped being a pain in the ass long ago:P
I'm not writing this comment to threaten/promise something but because I think it's not only me who feels thisway. Right now most of the moral PKers (and there are some good moral ones) are focused on evils because of the lack of lawsys. What makes you think you are gonna be safer when those people no longer have any reason to stay focused on the evils?
Like Berzelius said, the people who want to kill are going to kill anyway. Just this time there's gonna be a failkill less to stop us.
I hope we're not so embittered on both sides that we can't get back to the state of 'having fun' on both sides.
I am going to max three new ERs, max banks, and go on a rampage. But that's just me.
I would hope all BP's, scouts and regions would just go away and you'd have a wide open map.
With the lawsys being added, I'm still just concerned about the penalties for killing not being enough to deter the killing we saw before failkill. I hope it does...in fact, I hope to see some RP back in the game again...SoU and VC RP battling again, etc.
I believe so.
My question is, if we remove bp's will the scout system be remove also? So evils/sevils wont get a message if you enter mordor?
I just wanted to say I agree with Tlaloc's PoV about what really qualifies a 'newb' who is affected by the PvP. 'Can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, just don't go whine like a bitch in the dining room' kind of situation.
HOWEVER, the PvP is extremely limited in its scope and has long since grown stale. Opening up the game to everyone, with mild limitations on actual interaction, will improve the experience of this MUD 40 fold.
It satisfies Eqers, golders, and the general opinion of playability, offering a myriad of diverse scenarios that will keep this place fresh, and even interesting... Which of course will make people want to stay/even come back perhaps?
Make a global lawsystem, and the people who really want to indulge in torrents of playerkilling make Evil Race characters, and utilise the easy gold-making/eqing/leveling to get into the arena, and maintain the bloodlust. This alone can be deemed as moderately thematic, the hordes of bloodthirsty killers under Sauron with an evil background?
Fair enough.
This change will make the Two Towers fun again.
There's a lot of gold making in FH, but it's not as good as Near Harad/Harondor. People hunt the families of gorillas and packs of panthers, and at least whenever I go there, they're all dead already.
If we had the numbers that the free lands have, the gold making wouldn't be so good. It's better for your legion to just kill scouts in Harondor, anyway.
I wanted to comment on the golding in West Arda stuff...is that where all the top golding is for ER's that people talk about? In Far Harad? The pelting and whatever?
Even if you can make gold in the West, it's still a newbie area to me for the most part, and having top levels in the West golding becuause it's GOOD GOLDING seems to be taking stuff away from the newbies.
Make more golding areas in the East...maybe look at making pelting not affect alignment for FR's too. I dunno...
I can spin some theme, especially with help. And even if its onl 85% believable, so what.
Lawsys were never really thematic anyway. So yeah, as Tevildo said, just make it *entirely* OOC and don't even try to spin it as even somewhat thematic.
Also, getting a complete set of gear requires using almost all available areas, and it is a pain to do that (as the quests to get decent EQ are among the hardest) with regions and battlepoints.
I am also of the opinion that regions and BPs in their current format absolutely must go anyway, because the geographic situation is so outrageously slanted towards one side.
What happens when that enemy territory spreads to the entire area outside West Arda/FH?
Wtf is your problem people? We do have PvP.
The kills among FRs have been reduced to virtually nothing so practically the newbs are now protected. Every newb knows to stay out of the enemy color territory. Ever heard a real newbie (someone who started playing recently) complain about evils?
The people who complain against PKing are NEWBS trying to play the big man's game and who CAN NOT play it but think they are entitled to messing in PK.
The newbs are pretty much protected. Start coding non-debatable golding areas (yeah, takes time and effort) if you want the people not to leave the MUD. It's as simple as that.
Polk, I think theme takes a backseat to playability here. Neither are thematic, but there needs to be a compromise between setting and gameplay. If I were to choose which I like failkill over a lawsys, because at least with failkill you can make a convaluted argument that it COULD be thematic..kinda..I guess..
Whereas a lawsys just doesn't feel right at all.
It will take a long time to work out something better than failkill or lawsys, the answer is out there I just don't think we've thought of it yet. Untill then I really think just removing the option to takeover and removing scouts and patrols would be a very very effective bandaid solution. People could go and quest gear in enemy territory..and if they're careful, not get caught, it would be fun because you would be KNOWINGLY taking a risk and thus can't really whine when you get killed (though people will anyway, but screw them!). It would prevent lawsys free kills on newbies, the grid would be open and playable, but also a little risky, which is good. It would provide the breathing room to think of a system which would ge agreeable to most. Hell, it could even work out so well that a new system need not be thought up.
Now I'm going to ramble on a bit more. Perhaps we could also take this opportunity to change the murdering in a town system, which stops you from renting rooms etc. People say this is thematic, if you kill somewhere then there's no way they'd let you rent in the town. I'd like to point out something about time in this game. There is only 1 day here. Every 2 hours the same day starts over again like Groundhogs day. So why is it thematic for a town to remember that you've killed there..even though it never happened? Because the NPC side of the game cycles over only one day. Remember when Bill Murray did all those crazy things, and then woke up on the same day and it was like it never happened? That's what happens here. There is no tomorrow.
Better late than never.
Duh, failkill is surely way less thematic than a global lawsys. Or they're at least on the same level when it comes to theme.
First of all, lets point out the obvious:
^ Draugluin: It isn't how it was supposed to be, back when I thought it could work, anyway. And I doubt it ever will be. So, cut losses time.
If you track back to the aftermath of the whole guilds/warscape/ER introduction/failkill/backstab/camouflage changes, you will find all the old mudders completely being against them, as we all identified their limitations and problems quiet easily. No body listened to us before, and now 1 year later the admin finally admit it. I am not trying to rub anything in, but just saying that what old mudders think really matter because they have been playing the game for an enough period of time, and our openion will only benafit the admin!
Now, this line of thought is absolutly brilliant IMO. Everything will settle back to the way it used to be, and the environment will be 'PLAYING FREINDLY' as opposed to being 'THEME FRIENDLY'.
Lets all face it, the gameplay part of the game is what MAINLY makes you come playing here, not the theme part.
As soon as the game opens up, with restriction on PKs, tweaking the system will be easy. Do not distract the admin just yet, let them do the whole thing step by step. The transition back to an ENJOYABLE gaming atmosphere will be very easy and smooth, all that because the fault in the system has been identified by the people who matter.
Maybe in enemy land, movement could be halved, like I believe was mentioned in Dev57? There'd be no failkill, no battlepoints, no patrols. I don't say this because it should be harder for people to kill in enemy lands, but because I'd rather not see a necromancer following a Hand of Eru ranger around, or vice versa. If you've seen the Return of the King cartoon for Sam's vision of Arda...it's not all peace and harmony between the free and evil races.
Then we come to Sandstorm, the spell that initiates combat with everybody in the room/everybody who enters the room. This would have to be changed, or we're going to need a new profession Loan Shark to help them pay their fines.
What about bounty hunters and bounties? Free races have contracts for those they dislike that they can issue with gold. Bounties are so expensive to issue that there's currently only 3, and those on people who log on for 2 minutes, kill a newbie, then log out. My legion can't even afford to cut somebody's tongue. It's just too limited, if it's going to be used. Although maybe things will die down with the end of riot ERs, and we'll only need 3 at a time. It is easy to capture. Just an idea thrown out there. Another way would be to allow more warlord legions. We've like 3-4 emtpy garrisons in FH at the moment.
I think until it's implemented, Orcoron's idea would be best, remove taking over battlepoints. There's no point letting a problem go on after it's been acknowledged as a problem.
Last, in celebration of change, this once let people race change to the other side, if they wish to! Evils need more players
I agree with Orcoron, the current user problem stems from the huge parts of the mud that go completely unused when one side takes control of enemy territory. On the same token, the admin have never really seemed too worried about letting large portions of excellent code go to waste. The problem I've seen consistently in the past is the same one we're seeing here.. overcomplication. Who cares about idiots running their mouths? That's the purpose of ignore. I don't see anywhere in Draugluin's suggestion an increase in fines or death penalties for mouth-runners, and it shouldn't be the goal of the proposed changes to make it possible to 'shut someone up'. Ghosts can talk and ghosts can revive and players can run their mouth on the comm and still send tells. People talking smack is the foundation this game is built on, and neither a global lawsys or the retention of failkill will put an end to this.
Stick with simplicity. Without implementing a pk flag or some other abusable, overthunk change, allow those people who choose to parcipate in inter-faction PvP arenas to do so, and retain forms of dissuasion for intra-faction killers. I see no problems with these as they are, being the lawsys for FRs and legion-backed retribution for ER-ER crimes. Powerpoints can stay, legions don't need to be altered, ERs simply won't have (and don't require) battlepoint guards to farm those powerpoints.
A global lawsystem is overcomplication and bastardization of theme to an extent far greater than failkill. The easiest solution quite often is the best, you just need the foresight to admit it.
I think Athin forgets that if you have killers and supporters, and take away the killers... nobody dies. Take away the supporters, and it only becomes marginally more difficult for people to kill.
Overall, I like this idea. Failkill isn't realistic, nor would a universal lawsys be, but the lawsys was never intended to be anything more than a check on PKilling. The trappings of thematic enforcement were subordinate to the original purpose. A replacement doesn't have to involve 'law' at all, so long as there is SOMETHING to dissuade people from rampant killing. Leave it entirely OOC. Scrap ears and powerpoints, while we're at it, and maybe people will only kill for a good reason.
...yeah. Didn't think so.
Amusing how Sebrar can state the overarching purpose of the game, when the admins can't. Is he a modern prophet, or a dumbass? Only time will tell. Or I will--Sebrar's a dumbass. And why isn't this log colored? :P
So? Let them. You're not forced to pay attention to them. It's not like we're a bunch of 10 year olds. 'But Muuuuum Joey called me a poopoo head and he won't come out of his roooom!' These people can still sit in innrooms, west arda, far harad and guildhalls and do the same. And they will.
But see, if failkill were to remain you'd have idiots from both sides just constantly running their mouths at people, and will never have to face any kind of consequence from the people he's annoyed. They'd just stay in their lands and talktalktalk to their hearts content.
I just find the simplest solution is often the best. Also, just removing the option to takeover and control battlepoints is fucking easy to impliment. Nothing need be changed aside from few rooms and NPCs being removed. Scaling of fines, death penatly etc just seems to be an overly complex system.
Personally I think that removal of battlepoints,takeovers and patrols while retaining failkill would work well also. This would mean that if one went into enemy lands(let's keep a seperation between ERs and FRs) they knowlingly take a risk and can be attacked, but it would stop people from raiding the other sides lands for kills. I just dislike the idea of a global lawsys that would fine a person for killing an ER/FR. I think failkill works well enough to prevent that and that it's battlepoints and takeovers that are the real problem. However, I do agree that a global lawsys is infinatly better than the current situation.
I think the most interesting thing that would come from this would be a revival in the guild war interaction, which is something that, sadly, was lost with changes to both fade and the implementation of serve.
Can we get fade back next? :P
re: Orcoron:
I did suggest a discount on fines in such a situation. I think it would be best if as much of the mud was as usable and accessible as possible to everyone.
I'm all for it!
Well, if nothing better comes along I'd say go for it. But I hope they impliment it so that the lawsys doesn't extend to FR's who attack ERs in the FR part of the grid and visa versa.
Definitely!
I think that if this were to happen, killing would spike for a few weeks, but would then settle to an acceptable level.
I am completely for this system. Open up the MUD, stir the damn stagnant waters!