Here follows a discussion that began with Draugluin asking those on the comm about a global lawsys. After Draugluin and Mathias bowed out of the discussion, it continued. Most of it was between some noob named Sebrar and myself, and at the end Sebrar stopped talking, so I apologize that it almost turns into a soliloquy. The whole thing is a bit long and rambling, but worth reading, since removing regions and implementing a global lawsys would pretty much be the biggest change to the MUD over the past few years. -Sicarius ***************************************************************** ^ Draugluin: So alright, check it. ^ Draugluin: Hear me out for a minute, since I'm now convinced FSU's offense is too inept to pose a threat (which is a good thing) ^ Draugluin: I have this idea. Well, not yet. Its more like the beginnings of one. ^ Draugluin: So lets say that everyone who killed anyone who wasn't wanted or bountied had to pay a fine for doing so. And lets further say that the fine was higher if the person who did the dying hasn't "participated" (to be defined) in pkilling. Lets also say that if the person who did the dying DOES "participate", their death with hurt a little more than someone who does not. -- And also, all the regional control failkill patrol battlepoint stuff...disappeared. ^ Draugluin: Thoughts? ^ Altar: good cept for the participating thing ^ Altar: there are too many ways to participate that cant be defined ^ Sicarius: That would be OK so long as the particpation differential was quite small. ^ Athin: Why should it matter if they participate or not? ^ Athin: by playing they participate in pvp..though perhaps not direct pk ^ Sicarius: For example, the difference between contract and non-contract would be too great to apply to this. ^ Sebrar: if it was a private contract, how would the coding know? ^ Draugluin: Oh, I was thinking like 15%, or so. And for the death thing, something like 'old death' vs. 'now death'. ^ Draugluin: Also, the point isn't to be absolutely 100% perfect. Nothing, of course, could be. The point is to just ease a little bit. Encourage killers against killers, not killers against sheep. ^ Adoni: honestly, i like the idea. ^ Sicarius: I do too. ^ Adoni: how about remove bpoints too :P ^ Draugluin: Re-read what I Said. ^ Athin: but draug, a non killer supporting a killer is a killer..see? ^ Sicarius: Perhaps keep regions, but only in the sense that, say, if a FR gets killed in Harondor, the fine for the ER who kills him there is discounted. ^ Sicarius: Small discount, nothing crazy. ^ Draugluin: Well, I'm sure we'd keep some stuff about them. But mostly I'm talking about nixing the 'control' aspects. ^ Sicarius: Just a little bit of keeping 'sides' ^ Draugluin: It isn't how it was supposed to be, back when I thought it could work, anyway. And I doubt it ever will be. So, cut losses time. ^ Draugluin: So what Athin. You have to learn to live with small imperfections when you're trying to satisfy a lot. Essentially, you're saying to me that the 'worst' thing about the plan is that someone who does killer type things that aren't trackable might get the same death penalty someone who really isn't a killer gets, sometimes. So what. ;p ^ Sicarius: This would fix two of the biggest problems of the current system. Namely, the retriction that region control places on movement and general play being one, and the potential for everywhere-as-mordor being the second. ^ Athin: worst? no, but why differe it at all? ^ Draugluin: It might be a huge problem if it were something where they got like this HUGE difference. But I didn't say that. ^ Draugluin: Jah. Sic. ^ Draugluin: Jah, Sic, I mean. ^ Altar: what i like about this, is that it stands to open up the whole game to everyone ^ Mathias: Keep in mind that the region controls are absent in any scenario we're discussing these days :) (i.e. it's not a reason FOR one particular plan or another) ^ Sebrar: i think it would be cool if we could have a profession that helped FRs in battle sort of like Riders help ERs... we should have a warcry too ^ Altar: my personal opinion is that its silly not to let all the players play all the game, at the cost of theme, so i say amazing idea. ^ Sicarius: The only thing that makes me wonder is the fact that the ER golding process is both easier and more lucrative, but that's a whole other can of worms. ^ Sebrar: why do /they/ get pelt strings? ^ Altar: well sicarius doesnt this void all er/fr balance issues? ^ Athin: Sebrar, frs have access to one as well ^ Sebrar: by killing ERs? ^ Iuwbfo: fr pelts suck compared to er pelts :P ^ Draugluin: Yeah, get your gold balance complaining out of my lawsys discussion ;p ^ Adoni: it would be nice to pelt without losing align. ^ Sicarius: There's also the BD thing :P ^ Iuwbfo: ooh...i know ill go get me a rabbit pelt worth like 1 gold! ^ Jasumin: There's a gold imbalance of lawsys! ^ Jasumin: no...that's not true...I made that part up ^ Altar: thats crazy adoni, being a high alignment means showing respect to life ^ Draugluin: There's also the whiny mortal thing, but hey, you don't see me distracting the conversation! ^ Sicarius: How would we track participation? ^ Sicarius: Just a number of kills? ^ Draugluin: Guess so, yeah. Until someone thinks up a better idea. ^ Mathias: Recently, we polled asking if it wouldn't be better to just replace the region (control) system with a global lawsys of the sort. If the theme issue was off the table (Let's pretend that we could all work one out that satisfied everyone), would the mechanics of the old-style lawsys (current for FRs) work to meet the same goals you've all mentioned? OPening up the game to everyone, etc. etc. ^ Athin: don't track participation..even those who don;'t directly attack other players generally help the killers do so. ^ Draugluin: Of course it would. Sicarius already said he loves my idea, Mat, what more do you want? ^ Draugluin: I am the Golden Child. Blessed be me. And my idea, which is way less important. ^ Mathias: What I said != your idea :P ^ Sicarius: When you have Draugluin throwing out some ideas, and me saying that I like them, it is the crossing of the streams. ^ Draugluin: Well, no, mine was way better. Yours was bland and vanialla. ^ Athin: the old lawsys needs to be tweeked ^ Sicarius: Either the world is about to end or we are on to something. ^ Sebrar: i think that if you were to replace the control idea of the game, it would kill the warscape part of it and destroy half of the game. after all, isn't the war what the whole theme is about? ^ Altar: here's my final thoughts on the kill tracker idea thing... with fines would you really need another deterrent? ^ Draugluin: I hope the world is about to end, personally, but I'll settle for a quality idea. ;p ^ Draugluin: You can still make war on one another, Sebrar, without battlepoints. ^ Altar: we had been doing it for a very long time before them ^ Jasumin: It was a system they tried...it wasn't well received... ^ Athin: with lawsys the war would be more important. people wouldn't just go loking for anyone ^ Sebrar: but then you'd have to pay a fine for killing your enemies. how does that make sense? ^ Athin: they would have TARGETS ^ Sebrar: getting fined for fighting a war like you're supposed to i mean ^ Athin: specific ones as opposed to general :P ^ Jasumin: Sometimes playability has to come before theme. ^ Mathias: Sebrar, I said IGNORE the thematic aspects. ^ Altar: sebrar sometimes you need to choose playability over theme ^ Draugluin: There you go, Athin! ^ Mathias: Imagine we'll work it out. ^ Draugluin: Oh, and mordor'd still be lawless, in my mind. Watch, this is where Sicarius will diverge, and the earth will be saved. ^ Altar: like sebrar, i could kill you over and over now. is it thematic? yeah. is it good for your experience here as a player? no. is ther ea consequence for me doing it? nope ^ Athin: I am all for lawsys..but I do hope it gets tweeked a bit, since victims shouldn't get more when they are soloed :P ^ Sicarius: Well, lawsys in general always was a kind of strange concept applied to this world, but it kept rampant random killing in check. ^ Sicarius: I don't think the whole game should be lawsys'd, I never wanted Mordor to have one :P ^ Athin: well no, mordor shouldn't be ^ Draugluin: Uh oh. ^ Draugluin: In order to save the world, I shall try: White. ^ Sicarius: Mordor has always been 'the arena' ^ Sicarius: My dissatisfaction, and that of many others, stems from the whole world becoming 'the arena' ^ Sebrar: draug said mordor'd still be lawsys ^ Sebrar: lawless* ^ Athin: good :P ^ Sicarius: Yes, but he said I would disagree with that, which is incorrect :P ^ Draugluin: Damn it! ^ Idleman: Did I hear something about a mudwide lawsys? ^ Sicarius: Does this have any effect on potential changes to serve and ER professions (i.e. opening some up for FR) ^ Altar: well in this, serve wouldnt really exist would it? other than it being a 'moral' decision ^ Sicarius: Ah, true. ^ Jasumin: Or rather an immoral decision :p ^ Athin: serve could be left..just for npc reactions ^ Draugluin: No, this is one paragraph I threw out at you people. Just mine, just for a few minutes. Nothing to do with any of the other stuff you keep bringing up :P ^ Altar: well in regards to that paragraph, i say amazing idea ^ Sebrar: repeat the paragraph. i've forgotten it ^ Athin: I think most/all agreed with lawsys..and disagreed with the participation thing ^ Jasumin: And I missed it completely due to connection issues ^ Draugluin: Just you, Athin :P ^ Athin: Really? Surely not :( ^ Draugluin: Man, that was awesome though :p ^ Draugluin: You almost tricked me so good. ^ Sicarius: Yeah, nobody besides you really got on the participation issue :P ^ Idleman: The who's in the what now? ^ Sicarius: I wasn't going to let him slide on it, D! ^ Altar: i said i didnt think it was a great idea either ^ Draugluin: I thought he said it as a joke, honestly :P ^ Draugluin: But I see now not, so nevermind. Not nearly as funny. ^ Sebrar: would FRs get into FH and ERs get inta WA? ^ Altar: i feel the scalability of deaths is meant as a deterrent, right? ^ Draugluin: More like an incentive. ^ Draugluin: Killers killing Killers is good for everyone. Like rainbows and sunshine. ^ Athin: but what is to deter people from supporting the killers, draug? :P ^ Jasumin: So...any chance you'd repeat the whole idea, Draug? :P ^ Sebrar: that's what i said! ^ Sicarius: So, not so much you get penalized for killing a random nonparticipating noob, just that you get a discount on killers? ^ Draugluin: Right o. ^ Sebrar: there'd have to be a list or something. 'who killer' :P ^ Idleman: Thank god. ^ Athin: So there would :P ^ Idleman: I'd hate to not be able to kill noobs. ^ Jasumin: I'd have to remove my contract from Rami :( ^ Mathias: In my mind, servants would remain servants. Even with lawsys :P And WA and FH would remain unapproachable. ^ Sebrar: but wouldn't that mean that the game /still/ wouldn't be open everywhere to everyone ^ Athin: why not open FH for servants mathias? ^ Altar: yeah sebrar, but you're opening up like 40,000 rooms ^ Mathias: Because FH isn't designed like that. ^ Darkhour: whats the incentive of serving if there is a lawsystem ^ Athin: so why not allow servants to enter west? ^ Idleman: Mathias: neither was Gondor or Rhovanion. ^ Athin: it was closed to prevent newbie killing from what I remember :P ^ Sebrar: omg. who's attacking BPs while this is going on? ^ Jasumin: umm...probably evils? ^ Jasumin: Just a guess. ^ Draugluin: I will repeat my idea, yes. ^ Draugluin: Hold pls. ^ Darkhour: that would make sense to me ^ Jasumin: Thank you, Arch nemesis. ^ Draugluin: So lets say that everyone who killed anyone who wasn't wanted or bountied had to pay a fine for doing so. And lets further say that the fine was higher if the person who did the dying hasn't "participated" (to be defined) in pkilling. Lets also say that if the person who did the dying DOES "participate", their death with hurt a little more than someone who does not. -- And also, all the regional control failkill patrol battlepoint stuff...disappeared. ^ Mathias: Why not allow Servants to enter west? Because we still don't allow self-proclaimed enemies to enter newbie territories :P ^ Sicarius: Actually, the easiest solution to most of these geographic woes would be adding a few packmons to west arda, and adding necessary 19/20+ quest and name/race services more available to servants ^ Sicarius: Rather than trying to figure out who can go where ^ Athin: ...that is such an excuse :P would guilds be allowed to be evil without serving? ^ Mathias: West Arda has more than enough gold :P ^ Idleman: Bullshit. ^ Mathias: Sicarus, you're way behind the times ^ Altar: idleman you're full of it ^ Crazyeyes: gold in west arda? ^ Jasumin: Move all good quests/packs/weapons into west Arda ^ Idleman: Mathias, when was the last time you played this game? ^ Altar: people are just ashamed to gold in WA ^ Crazyeyes: is there such a thing? ^ Sebrar: there's someone who free-golded 5k in 10 minutes ^ Mathias: ER and Servantss already have name/race services. ^ Idleman: I mean, since you're saying he's behind the times and all. ^ Sebrar: FH has no freegold quests ^ Altar: of course it does, sebrar ^ Draugluin: I don't think you have to have a level 7 to know that West Arda has an awful lot of ways to earn gold. :P ^ Sebrar: or at least not in the same sense ^ Draugluin: If thats the best you can do, well, your argument sucks. ^ Altar: WA is an incredible place to gold. ^ Idleman: It does, Draugluin. But comparing West Arda to FH packmons is absurd. ^ Altar: period. ^ Altar: ever beel to dells, Idleman? ^ Altar: been ^ Mathias: I don't think I have to currently play to know that I *put* race/namechanges in for Servants. ^ Idleman: Yes, Altar. The comparison is hardly apt. ^ Altar: err yeah it is ^ Idleman: That's where we disagree, then. ^ Altar: you can do about 6k per hour at dells ^ Draugluin: All I saw anyone say is that WA has enough gold. ^ Draugluin: I'd definitely agree. ^ Sebrar: mathias: i think people were talking about the 19/20 ER quests ^ Crazyeyes: there is a difference between being able to pelt and not lose align and have to stay a certain align and go pelting ^ Mathias: It'd be like saying that BD should have more gold. ^ Altar: yeah but you're wrong, and i'm right, Idleman :P people are just ashamed to gold in WA ^ Mathias: Sebrar: We're already working on that. ^ Sicarius: I apologize for being mistaken about the name/race thing for servants. It's hard to keep track of all of the crazy things Nyx has complained about :P ^ Crazyeyes: Fr's lose their alignment when they pelt, ER's dont! ^ Sebrar: so? it isn't here yet:P it's still indev ^ Mathias: So what? ^ Mathias: Saying it's something we /should/ do makes no sense. ^ Mathias: We're already doing it. ^ Athin: so would guilds be able to be evil without actually serving, mathias? :P ^ Crazyeyes: so, that's a big reason why Fr's don't pelt. ^ Sebrar: anyone who doesn't dev list wouldn't know ^ Mathias: Anyone who doesn't 'who' doesn't know who's online. ^ Jasumin: No its not. At low levels you usually don't worry too much about alignment ^ Draugluin: Might be cool if nobody, no matter what, lost or gained any alignment, no matter what, until level 5. ^ Jasumin: It's about levelling up ^ Draugluin: I've seen that in tons of games. ^ Crazyeyes: right, but highlvls do. ^ Mathias: And anyone who doesn't 'quit' tends to log off by being idle-disconnected. ^ Mathias: Commands are useful. :P ^ Sicarius: That would be an OK idea, Draugluin. ^ Jasumin: Mathias...that's not true ^ Jasumin: commands suck ^ Sebrar: but then what about fatty quest? ^ Sicarius: I remember being very concerned the first time I ever leveled when it had 'Immoral' after my name. ^ Sicarius: Back when you had to mud via smoke signal. ^ Draugluin chuckles. ^ Altar: am very happy and supportive of this idea, draugluin ^ Jasumin: Don't get me started on the "back in my day" talk. ^ Jasumin: We didn't have your new fangled whips and aiglos and that crap. We made do with sturdy swords damnit. ^ Sicarius: This is probably the easiest chit-chat session Draugluin has had in ages. ^ Altar: this idea was a long time coming, and very welcome :P ^ Jasumin: Well...it's nice when the ainur ask player opinions before making drastic changes. ^ Draugluin: Good, Altar. A lot of people, like Mathias, aren't. You should yell at him. Make a voodoo doll if you require. ^ Jasumin: We as the players, appreciate it. ^ Draugluin: If Sicarius could send some really mean smoke signals at him, that'd be great. ^ Draugluin: :P ^ Mathias: I just don't think that an involvement subjectivity is neccessary :P ^ Altar: ok here's my final opinion on the participant thing. i think it could be a good idea to scale fines a bit, but you cant scale death for people, due to basically what mathias just said ^ Draugluin: You can scale death, and here's why. ^ Draugluin: Killers tend to want tougher deaths. So give it to them. Let them hurt one another more, and be all happy about it. ^ Idleman: Give it to me harder, Draug! ^ Draugluin: More being 'like it used to be only a few months ago', and not 'crippling, make your momma cry' ^ Draugluin: Though, if it made your momma cry, I'd be okay with that. ^ Altar: but i feel that if you want to punish someone, you want to punish them :P if its a spy or something, you want them to suffer regardless of how many people they attacked or killed in the last month ^ Mathias: If your momma cries because you died in a game, you should 'quit', tho. ^ Sicarius: I think it's funny that as we have this discussion, the ERs are taking Arda. You know they're in their parties saying 'Shit! We have to gangbang as many noobs as possible before he makes this batshit idea a reality!' ^ Draugluin: Yeha good point Mat. ^ Draugluin: But I've known people here with bigger issues than their moms crying. ^ Draugluin: You do still hurt them. They die, remember. And they lose all their stuff, and experience, and stats, and everything! ^ Altar: but you'll be sitting there thinking like.. oh should i participate in something or be a lame-o, and then you'll be a lame-o because you know that making a kill will make you worse off later ^ Idleman: Why can't we just make all deaths hurt more? ^ Draugluin: Yeah, sure, because people who want to kill think like that :P ^ Idleman: And not be scaled? ^ Klardin: people that want to kill also probably want to make all deaths hurt not those on other select people. ^ Draugluin: Because people who just want to do their thing and don't get 12/h a day to play shouldn't get so screwed when you impose yourself upon them. ^ Idleman: You're not thinking about how this change will affect spreekillers!@ ^ Draugluin: Haha, no, I'm sure not :P ^ Idleman: What about people like Impy, who DO play 12h/day, but don't pkill? ^ Draugluin: They'll be fine. Carry on. ^ Idleman: Can anyone who makes top activity be made a 'killer' so we can punish them more effectively? ^ Draugluin: Might want to consider taking a few breaks (Guildwars, btw, sends you messages every hour. Guilting you into quitting. Love it.). ^ Sicarius: Oh, I don't think we want to discourage people from playing :P ^ Sicarius: The current system has done enough of that! ^ Idleman: Word. ^ Sebrar: if draugluin's idea were do occur, i feel it would have to be necessary for ERs and FRs to decide on when they feel like fighting army vs. army. Otherwise, we'd just get penalized for killing ERs or FRs just like an FR would be penalized for killing an FR and ER for an ER. thoughts? ^ Sicarius: Agreements like that were drawn up between guilds long before ERs ever came along. ^ Sicarius: It added an edge to guild politics that is all but gone nowadays. ^ Sebrar: but those are guild alliances and wars... not "the war between good and evil fought at mt" as mathias says is the point of the game ^ Sicarius: What exactly did you have in mind? ^ Sicarius: Specifically? ^ Mute: Sebrar, you havnt been around, have you ^ Sebrar: i've been around for several years... but anyway, in order not to get penalized for killing an ER, i'd think we'd have to arrange for a war. ^ Sebrar: it would replace the sense of BPS ^ Sicarius: The fact that free kills exist is the problem. ^ Paraiko: I think the ERs' jackass bangs have eroded any hope for a diplomatic solution ;P ^ Sicarius: So, what you're proposing is the problem that is going to be fixed. ^ Paraiko: I remember when I used to like people on the 'other side' ^ Jason: FRs don't have jackass bangs? :( ^ Sebrar: the idea of a lawsys, as i see it, is to deter PvP. however, if the lawsys was extended to ERs vs. FRs, the penalties for murder and attempted murder would also be extended (along with theft and attempted theft) ^ Sicarius: Yes, that's the idea. ^ Sicarius: It's not to deter pvp ^ Sicarius: It is a means to control it. ^ Paraiko: it would in effect deter it though, given the motivation for playing ERs ^ Jason: But what you don't see is that it will deter pvp. ^ Rathmar: It'll deter circle jerks, at least. ^ Jason: A lot worse than you think. ^ Jason: That's true Rathmar :P ^ Sebrar: as it is now, you can attack the opposite "side" at BPs without penalty. however, with BPs removed, you'd have to almost schedule a battle to replace the feeling of ER/FR rivalry ^ Jason: But if it is random killing we want to get rid of it will be a success and I am not against that in the least. ^ Jasumin: Don't think of it as a penalty....think of it as a reward...because you are l33t playerkillers you get to have a slightly more challenging game....it's something to brag about! ^ Sicarius: There was a ton of PVP before ERs came along, there continued to be a lot of it when ERs came along, except that a lot of it became free, which also had the effect of pleasing a minority: the pk horny, while pissing off a far larger portion of the mud population ^ Mute: well said, Sicarius ^ Rathmar: My problem with the game is largely that I can't go exploring and working out quests without ER's coming to jetstream on my face. If you haven't already memorized the quests (and most likely have them all aliased), there's almost no chance of figuring them out. ^ Jasumin: You just like it because he used to word horny in a sentence that didn't involve some half-naked chick or guy ^ Rathmar: Perhaps it's because I don't have a souped up client to auto escape from any killers or whatnot, but venturing out to enjoy content is dead as Steve Irwin. ^ Tanner: too soon ^ Jason: Ouch. ^ Sicarius: There will still be free PK, in the arena (mordor) as before. The current system of entire-mud-as-arena has been given a lot of time to see how it works, and it worked exactly as I said. It pleased a minority while ruining the game for a lot of people. ^ Jasumin: way to throw current events in there :p ^ Sicarius: And I do mean -ruining- the game. ^ Jason: I don't think it completely ruined the game. ^ Sicarius: Not completely. ^ Sebrar: if it ruined the game... why do so many people still play? ^ Jasumin: RP is ruining the game! ^ Jason: It just got all the old people that couldn't play anymore out. ^ Jason: Which pissed everyone off a good deal. ^ Sicarius: No, that is incorrect. ^ Mute: Sebrar fact of the matter is a lot less play. ^ Jason: Some people couldn't play under the current system. ^ Jason: Or the "pre-failkill" era. ^ Sicarius: I'm as old as almost anybody on here, and a lot of my friends have been around for a long time, and we have adapted. That doesn't mean we're -happy- with it. ^ Sebrar: even at the remotest time, i've seen players in the 30s... that's over most muds' altime record of player activity! ^ Sebrar: and normally we have 60-130 ^ Jason: I saw a lot of people go though. Young and old Sicarius. ^ Jasumin: It's way under the good old days here though ^ Sicarius: I don't think we'll ever see it back to the way it was. It's a different world out there and lots of people are more interested in the alternatives. ^ Sicarius: Hoewver ^ Mute: I feel muds are timeless, like books. ^ Jasumin: And mostly ignored....like books :p ^ Jason: I think we are at the point of "Enough is a enough and its time for a change" ^ Sebrar wants to hear Sic's "however" ^ Sicarius: I, for one, look forward to the time when I can play, unmolested by constant scout messages and worrying about getting attacked by some random a-hole I've never even spoken to. ^ Sicarius: It's not that I am unable to procure 300 hp of healing and carry it around, thus saving my life ^ Sicarius: It's that I -do not want to have to do so- ^ Sicarius: It shouldn't be a prerequisite for doing, well, anything ^ Jasumin: Actually the main thing is...there has been...not just one...but a series of major (and minor) changes that have slowly but surely turned off the majority of players ^ Rama: ah its nto bad people ^ Jason: I think we turned off a select few that like to really think their opinion is the opinion of the enite MUD :P ^ Jason: Entire rather. ^ Mute: a lot of people left ^ Rathmar: It also killed a lot of the casual players as well. ^ Jason: Yeah I wouldn't argue that Rathmar. ^ Sicarius: I would say the region/er/freekill system is probably one of the largest. Guilds is another, but I don't think we can ever expect any major changes in that department, so hearing that this is being considered is very welcome. ^ Krow: That's the main thing. The casual player can't enjoy it anymore. ^ Sebrar: but for what reasons? many people leave to move on with life... they're in the military, the workforce, whatever, and just don't have the time anymore ^ Jasumin: from well over 100 players to usually below 70 isn't just a select few :p ^ Sicarius: Jason, do you admit that you are defending a system that pleases only a small minority? ^ Jason: Its hard to start this game as a newbie now thats for sure. ^ Jason: Yes I do. ^ Sicarius: At least you realize that. ^ Jason: I am not exactly defending it though either. Just saying that it is not the opinion of everyone here that this system is completely wrong. ^ Sicarius: It's better than the 'Grow up and learn how to play' argument :P ^ Jasumin: Guild changes made me very unhappy ^ Paraiko: that the wise Berzelius preaches ^ Sicarius: I have also been one of the most vocal opponents to the current system, and do you know how many times I have died to ERs on any character that mattered? ^ Sicarius: Once, maybe twice. ^ Sicarius: I'm not bitching and moaning because I've died a lot. I'm bitching and moaning on behalf of everyone else :P ^ Sebrar: very few people die who haven't joined a raiding party... and few of them die either ^ Sebrar: by die, i mean killed by ERs ^ Jason: I didn't like the set up before failkill. That was too much random killing. ^ Jasumin: Yeah...it's so much better with failkill and battlepoints...having players avoid regions because ERs took them over...or having pk in places that don't belong to regions :P ^ Sebrar: the failkill sys would disappear Jason. The lawsys only gives a failkill on a select few NPCs *punches dorgy in the face* ^ Jason: I would welcome a change. ^ Sebrar: i agree with jasumin ^ Jason: Was it better when you would get slaughtered all over the map by bangs? :P ^ Sicarius: Failkill has fixed a lot of problems, while creating some others. ^ Jason: Or when you couldn't gold anywhere because of double ambushes? :P ^ Rathmar: Well, my opinion on this whole situation is that there are others who care a whole lot more about game mechanics and I defer to their knowledge and experience, as I'm rather old fashioned anyway. ^ Sebrar: "not being able to explore" gives incentive to win BPs and therefore regions which is the point of this game as far as i can see ^ Sebrar: whether it was in the past or not is irrelevant ^ Rathmar: But I know that as the game stands, I don't really want to take the trouble to learn how to play this version. ^ Sebrar: the past is history ^ Sicarius: See, that's the thing. Before all of this BP shit, people played and defined their own rules of interaction, rather than some rigid system. ^ Jason: The system owns us now :P ^ Sicarius: SoU would say 'hey let's go kill in loth together' ^ Sicarius: And VC would come and say 'NO YUO' ^ Sicarius: They had agreements on how to proceed. ^ Sicarius: And they did so, and it was fun. ^ Jason: I miss that kinda thing. ^ Sicarius: A lot (most, even) of that combat happened without lawsys intervention, because that was agreed upon. ^ Jason: Now its just bang bang bang. ^ Sicarius: This also before merciful, so people would occasionally die, some people were drama queens about it. ^ Sebrar: that still happens. only now it's with BPs. how many times do people say "who wants to raid DG?" or "take back DA. i want the pack" etc etc... quite a lot! ^ Rathmar: So you're saying casual players should be forced to band together to further explore the game, regardless of their desire to get involved in player battles? ^ Rathmar: That pvp is forced on us if we want to enjoy other elements of the game? ^ Tanner: hell, if i had a choice i would have gagged the roleplay spam today ^ Rathmar: I'm going to take a giant dump and think about your ideas, Sebrar. ^ Rathmar: Afk a few. ^ Sebrar: i'm saying that desire to explore gives incentive to -play the game how it is designed- in LOTR, did the orcs say "oh, the fellowship wants to come through and have tea, let's let them pass!" of course not! ^ Sicarius: The idea of lawsys for all is a playability issue. ^ Sebrar: the fellowship had to fight the whole way to get to mt. doom. ^ Krow: It wouldn't ever fly, but if I had my way, I'd get rid of ERs altogether and we can all go back to the previous strife and mayhem we had before. :p With a whole new sub-continent to play in. ^ Sicarius: And, like I said, just because lawsys will be in place does not mean that side vs. side combat won't occur. ^ Paraiko: not really ;P ^ Sebrar: but without lawsys, we won't have penalties for those combats ^ Sicarius: Are you even listening to what I'm saying? ^ Mute: Sebrar. Direct question and Answer. Have you ever been beyond the high pass? ^ Sebrar: yes ^ Tanner: as a FR? ^ Sicarius: So much combat happened outside of the lawsys before the ER system. ^ Sebrar: alask yes ^ Sebrar: sorry for the random word. it wouldn't let me repeat myself :/ ^ Sebrar: do you know how many alts i've had? ^ Mute: no idea ^ Sicarius: It just happened in a way that players defined themselves. ^ Jason: 0? ^ Sebrar: haha. 27 ^ Jason: I was close :P ^ Idleman: Any we'd care about? :p ^ Sebrar: because you keep talking about how i'm a noob with no experience in the game. i'm telling you i do ^ Idleman: Your arguments are based entirely on theme. Theme is stupid. ^ Sicarius: You admitted you started playing at a time when regions were already in the game. ^ Paraiko: well, you said earlier you'd only played for a few years ;P ^ Mute: well your comments do sound pretty stupid. ^ Sicarius: And you can't imagine a world without regions. ^ Sebrar: theme is why things are rejected ^ Sebrar: things such as petitions clans etc ^ Sicarius: I can. I played for years before regions came along, and I can say that it was more fun. ^ Sicarius: For me, at least. ^ Sicarius: I actually used to be in SoU, and would participate in the feuds with VC and Amruin. ^ Sicarius: You could have fun and interact without worrying that some jackass with the black sword is going to down a gala vial and land some monster stab on you, you lose all your eq, and get nothing in return for it. ^ Sicarius: It also allowed for smaller groups (or individual players) to participate. ^ Sicarius: As opposed to begging for a party of five on the FR comm every time the scouts start spamming you ^ Sicarius: Nothing stopped people who liked working with 5-10 others at a time from doing so. ^ Sicarius: Now, you can only really be an effective lone particpant if you are an assassin, and to a lesser degree sniffer or bountyhunter.