OK, this is a continuation on the log pasted by Sicarius which had Draugluin's idea. I thought of petitioning this, but because Ainu want something perfect and particular, i wanted to get your inputs here so we could submit something we can all accept. This is a rough copy so feel free to butcher it:D
My comment was more aimed towards showing you the path of light towards the realization that no matter what, you guys are going to find something to moan about, not because there's anything particularly wrong, but because it's a passtime of yours. Valinor too proud to admit things aren't going according to plan? Uh-huh, that's why there's been good knows how many discussions about changing things (and plans being drawn up).
It all strikes me as drama-queenie and sensationalist to me. Just continue to voice your opinions to each other, argue your pedantic problems with each other, I guess at least you're not out on the streets while you're doing it, and from what I can see, that can only be a good thing!
Shut the fuck up.
Focus on the issue and..just shut the fuck up.
Well if annoying people is what floats your boat fair enough....cant seriously believe im commenting anymore. Im sure you just want the last word though like everyone else....so just comment once more and you have it.
Now I got you started, didn't I?
Well, obviously you cared about what people thought of ERs pre-release enough to spark up your conspiracy theory. There you have it, I was wrong! Tevildo, I and our comrades have been plotting over the ER release and using our undercover influence to cause the bloodbath. In the meanwhile, we would whine on comm for them to be released!
Seriously, if that is your argument behind your 'main reason', you are ruining your cause just by defending it. I wouldn't have spoken up if you hadn't provided me with an argument so susceptible to bashing for personal amusement.
Do you think anything you say here helps with the 'main problem' at all? Hopefully it does. I don't think so.
I also like the fact how you like most people here get all pinicity about the sub-argument of my point and dont even answer the main reason that this whole big argument continues.
Who fucking cares about what people thought of ers before they came out...that doesnt help the problem we have now does it jaron?
Mind you, i dont think you are in any position to be answering my queries as all you have done for the past 3 years is idle in your ship while i have continued to take death after death from all the pk hungry ers that still wander around in their bang parties. Yes i fight back to take bps quite a lot so i deserve to be attacked, but the only reason i fight back is so i can have our part of the warscape green so that i can actually play the game and enjoy it, not spend my time skulking around because i could get attacked at any minute by some jerk off.
Dont know why i bother commenting though, i dont want to come back.
I have been here many moons jaron, in fact i started playing right about the time ers got removed the first time...
'did it perhaps occur to you that the people whining for ers to come out are probably the people that are now constantly abusing the advantage ers have'
According to Smert you are one of them!
A lot of people were looking forward to the re-release--I was one of them. ERs were supposed to be improved, given a safe 'homeland', and made free of the bugs and restrictions that plagued the mission system. Those of us who hadn't immorted or suicided our ER chars couldn't wait to get back into the thick of things. (If your FR was forcibly hibernated for years, you'd be anxious too.)
Most of us didn't figure that new ERs would be a bastardized set of FRs with a lot of the cool parts taken away and PK-provoking elements put in their place.
So yeah, in that sense it was anticipated, but still a failure.
Either my memory is screwed up, or a good deal of people were looking forward to the ER release, it used to be a common talking topic on the comm that everyone was excited about. You can see that from the tone in the first posts about ER professions and areas on the website (I think it is still there).
I'm also pretty sure that no one could foresee it would go this way until the immediate moments before release.
Of course I could be wrong and there could be a hidden cult of Valinor alt PKers that somehow knew of ideas like battlepoints and ER professions that weren't even thought of back then, and 'whined' for it. I sure as hell hope Smert was here to witness it himself back then.
And also before a few changes to BD autoattacking mons, and the numenorean camp entry, and the entry to a few more places in Mordor, and the Morgul road, and (not 100% sure about this one) the changes to the way some huntbreaks work vs ERs (or rather don't work). So if you want Mordor as it was three years ago, you should not only remove the password, and not only rescing the changes mentioned by Jabba, but also rescind these changes, that he so conveniently left out; and since all of this seems at best improbable, the password should stay as is.
Wow...i actually agree with jabba.
And scatha....did it perhaps occur to you that the people whining for ers to come out are probably the people that are now constantly abusing the advantage ers have, and therefore the main cause of the problem we have now?
Personally i think most of the ainur, up until recently at least, are too proud to admit that all the work that they have put in has been in vain. I understand the time that has been spent making ers and if id spent that long on something i wouldnt want it gotten rid of, but there are other solutions to it which i think you dont want to look at, as you believe it will somehow be admitting that ers are a failure.
Mordor was, imo, absolutely more fun for both morals and evils as it was a few years ago, before the password, before the scout reports and before the stupid changes to the stairs, and of course, before the removal of fade. A few years ago, people tried to stay inside Mordor when they were attacked because they knew it would take some time to get back in if they left. Now people can just leave, grab a phial, and be back within 2 minutes.
The big problem, however, is that so many small changes made all of this into a huge mess. Not just Mordor, but all the spreekilling, the 'death' of RP etc.
In my opinion, there is no other good solution than to try and make the mud more like it was a few years ago. And no, Scatha, the mud was probably not perfect back then, but it sure was more perfect than it is now.
Don't try to fix what aint broken!
'scroll back the mud 3 years' to a time when people were moaning about how Mordor is closed off and unusable?' Im not sure how anyone would think that mordor is more open and more usuable for FREE races now then it was before tho :)
Well i never asked for evils. No one i knew asked for evils. All my RL friends i talked to when ER's got launched agreed that it would create alot of problems including most of the problems we have today. Im not sure who was moaning about evils getting relaunched, but it was probely players that was around the first time evils was around and most of them have left the mud now. So i would think that many with me would rather have the mud as it was before people started 'To where people were moaning, constantly asking 'When are ERs coming out?! I can't wait for ERS!!!!!'.'
@Mirnac et al: You mean 'scroll back the mud 3 years' to a time when people were moaning about how Mordor is closed off and unusable? To where people were moaning, constantly asking 'When are ERs coming out?! I can't wait for ERS!!!!!'.
Yeah, cos 'scrolling back the mud' would solve all our problems...
Nobody is motivated to kill by their lack of a necklace, that's for certain. Whether the motivated party is goofs or pros, the result is the same.
Possibly Pallasch, but as I recall I killed alot more ER's then they killed me *shrug*
I'm pretty sure I remember you hibernating because of what I said, Tared :P
People who care about ears are people who have never killed anyone/killed like three people. Its a big deal to them to have proof that they actually are 'pkers'.
I quit WoW because I got auto booted from my legion for inactivity.
I've always been against the necklace. Whenever somebody dies you hear 'I got his ear!' or 'God damn it, who stole my ear?' Or that one time 'I just completed my Warlord set!'
No killer wants an empty necklace. If you have one, you're going to be tempted to fill it.
And the answer is No, pallasch. I quit because I didn't like the direction the mud was going and also becuase I started playing WoW. =P
I don't log. : (
Haha. Polk don't tell me that people that have a necklace (assassins/bounty/sniffers mainly) don't log every crap kill they ever made anyway? Yes they do. The necklace is there for the bragging effect. Not saying everyone with a necklace do it to brag but most people yes.
If you don't like the necklace, don't use it, DUH. It's the simplest way to track your kills. And people kill other people because they can do it for free, not because they get an ear. As for Tared's comment, if he read the previous comments, he wouldn't come up with the dumb 'theme' argument. Unless he's dumb himself.
Iv never liked the necklace/ear thing. I acctualy refused to buy one when i was dragged there. I don't see any point in it except bragging about the kills you do. Log O mania is allready that necklace.
'So why are ER's so fixated on making FR's miserable?'
Blah blah ears, blah blah powerpoints... perhaps removing or altering the MOTIVES behind random kills would have a more direct impact than simply tacking on fines after the fact.
The more this conversation drags on the more I start to agree with Orcoron--let's get a short-term fix in place NOW. Players are dropping like flies and hibernating like... hm. Something that hibernates for a long time. We'll say bears. Once the bleeding has stopped we can all try to devise an appropriate permanent solution, discuss it, playtest it, and make sure it actually WORKS this time.
Evils got alot more advantages on free/easy kills then free got over for evils. Free cannot go into mordor and kill evils as easy as evils can do it to Free. It isnt often you would find a evil golding in moria or warcamp outside Loth. It is very often you would find free races there tho. There isnt many areas anymore that offers good gold for people that don't want to kill moral stuff. That is the biggest problem i see in the FR/ER interaction.
And there are quite a few FRs who are fixated on sitting in their GHs and chatting on comm, so 'FRs are fixated on idling and chatting'.
I disagree, Filch. There are quite a few FRs who are fixated on killing ERs.
Now he's trying to make everyone else follow him. And no, FRs aren't 'fixated on killing ERs' (of course, one reason for that would be that the current game setting with regards to regions and battlepoints discourages FRs from killing ERs unless they come to FR-owned regions).
Didn't you throw a fit and quit because of the fact you weren't getting reimbursements from all the times you died to ER's?
I haven't had time to read over all the comments and this has probably been said time and time again. It would be kind of lame to have a global lawsys system that the -FREE- races got fined for killing the -EVIL- races, seems a little out of theme? FR's and ER's should -not- be treated equally by the lawsys system for any reason, ever. Thanks.
For the same reason that FRs are fixated on killing ERs.
Because they can.
So why are ER's so fixated on making FR's miserable?
Nonsense, there's lots to do in the game that doesn't involve killing.
Then ER's would have no one to kill, and they'd get bored and the game would die...
I suggest removing FRs. That'd solve the problem, too.
That would be 3years back :)
...and remove the Mordor password.
I say scroll back the mud about 3years. Remove all the crazy guilds and reinstate the guild process thing. Also reinstate the really old guild megs and such. Use the 10members 4h activity thing but don't destroy guild because of theme thing. Remove evils and evil lands, (or keep the lands just make it extremely hard, like alot of patroling npc's and crap) bring back fade (If you want to balance it keep the latest update to fade that you could be nocked out of it)
Really suffer meant as in actually suffer not suffer incredibly badly.
For the greater good of god!
No, not really. Just a lil' bit. And for the good of all of us:D
And Global Lawsys is far more likely to enhance RP (end random repetitive killing) than damage it. Only theme will really suffer.
Bring the old MUD back! And while you're at it, bring Rimsilval back!
Common consensus says that the majority of people WANT the old mud back.
Global lawsys and opening the whole grid for everyone are very bad ideas.
You are asking for the old mud but with more areas, races and profs (Evil's).
The new system has good things and I believe we should keep some of them, it greatly enhanced the war feeling of Good vs Sauron, something you did not see much in the old mud, except for SoU's roleplay.
For those who said something about this, theme and roleplay are two very important things to make a mud enjoyable, so don't be too hasty to throw them away.
If you are so desperate to solve the situation now and want a fast solution, simply removing the BPs I think will do it. But a better thought solution should come, and should not include global lawsys or open grid, and should care about theme.
NER for FR against ER too, probably (lawless erebor ftw)
It's very easy to solve this problem:
1. Remove BPs
2. If ER attacks FR, it goes under lawsys unless it is in HAR, SOR, NH, UMB.
3. If FR attacks ER, it goes under lawsys unless it is in ROV, LOT, ROH, GON, SG.
4. Mordor stays lawless.
If you don't agree with this...what do I care?! :-P
I'll say it again, changing sandstorm code must go hand in hand with the global lawsys. It can't be dealt with later, because it has the potential for unlimited abuse of other players, preventing them completely from using one of their spells.
I like Waste's proposal, except for the difference in death costs, which I don't like.
Due to the logpage being down, I was unable to access and see these comments. Now that I did, I do not think a lot of you agree on the content of the petition, which was the whole point of this post, so I guess we are back to square one?:p
I would like to point out that I like Tortuga's line of thinking and would like to propose the following:
1- Battle points: Keep ER/FR seperation through the current region system but remove Battlepoint, Patrols and Failkill from the equation. i.e. people from both sides will be able to roam all part of Arda freely without patrol following them, or a BP blocking them. West Arda will be restricted for ERs, and Far Harad will be restricted for FRs
2- Lawsays:
a) FR Vs FR and ER Vs ER: those interactions will all be reportable by the lawsays system no matter which area you are in. To exactly know the situation here refer to the principle stated in the post. (sections a,b,c and d in the Participtant section)
b) ER VS FR: Here I believe that a variable should be used to report any interactions. Lets say an ER goes into FR land and attacks an FR there, his fines and death penalties will be the same as point (a), however, if an FR attacks an ER who is in FR region, the crime will be reportable, but the compensation will be much lower than scenario (a) and death penalty for the FR if he dies as a result of this interaction will be from the low spectrum. Oppossitly, the ER will incur higher death damage.
Point B is the real change here, people will simply be able to kill anyone anywhere, however, to seperate ERs from FRs, region seperation will enable FRs to attack 'hostile' ERs in their lands without having to pay high fines and suffer a low death penalty, where the hostile ER on the other hand will have to pay a higher fine and incur higher death penatly. Vice versa for a Hostile FR in ER land.
Since this is a flame-free envirornment so far, lets try to keep it that way:p
Trying to lessen the complications:
1-Remove the Battlepoint/Failkill/Patrols parts of the system
(keeping regions unused for the moment)
2-Add ERvFR (but not ERvER to the lawsys)
3-Add a courthouse in kadar and in osgiliath.
4-Reset 'Murder' and 'Attempted Murder' fines for FRs.
This is an attempt to make things come out fast but still be slightly reasonable. I don't know the code or who would be doing the coding, but that doesn't seem like a lot: 3&4 seems like a few hours work; depending on the the code 2 might be easy as well; and 1 would take like a week or two. So totally this up something like a month if it is actively worked on?
After this basic structure is added then we could thinking about adding other stuff like 'participation-dependant deaths', 'region-based fines', 'changing the code of sandstorm' or anything like that.
I'd rather improve the current system to a sub-optimal state (but still better than current) now (or asap) than discuss and rediscuss every minor point until we have it exactly the way we want it and then they go code it that way. it would be at least 6 monthes before we got anything that way.
I guess my point is that even if i my list isn't full or correct (in your eyes) we should look for the most simple solution for the time being, so the ainur know the direction the players think we should go and start working on it.
Scatha wrote:
'If you use the 'kill' command, you're trying to harm someone. No matter if it's for noble causes or not, it's still trying to harm them. There should never be carte blanche for the use of that command, under any circumstance.'
I think this perfectly defines what the problem is, and makes it very clear what the solution needs to be.
I don't do things profanely, sometimes angrily though...
But yeah, I see your point.
We don't require guilds to 'defend npc1, npc2, npc3'. They do that of their own choice. How they do that, is their choice also. I think all of you that have suggested some kind of 'rp' mode have also acknowledged that it's pretty much impossible to make it unabusable. And that's the crux of it: it will be abused, therefore I can pretty much bet that it won't be coded.
Gaul said: 'The command would only work in rooms with NPCs you protect.' What would stop a GM from adding a huge list of NPCs, so that there's a good chance to be able to attack someone freely?
You suggest now that a RP mode is needed. And if it was made, and the regular scum started abusing it (as you know they will), you'd also be telling us that it needs fixing - and you'd be doing so angrily and most likely profanely. I'm not a prophet - God writes the script, I just say the lines.
If you use the 'kill' command, you're trying to harm someone. No matter if it's for noble causes or not, it's still trying to harm them. There should never be carte blanche for the use of that command, under any circumstance.
Did we ever occur to any of you that you are not getting anywhere with this discussion?
I never said it wouldn't require a change in the code, I said it isn't a problem big enough to stop the implementing of global lawsys.
Orcoron said: 'A global lawsys would also require a change to the code of sandstorm'
In which case you misunderstood what he said, and I can't really be blamed.
You obviously misunderstood what I said: if the global lawsys, which will fix the whole thing, has a problem with a single spell, it's the spell that needs tweaking.
If it's a potentially wide-scale abusable problem, then yes, you can. That's like saying if a wizard casts fireball or lightning in a room and automatically go into combat (in such a way that they can be fined) with everyone in the room, it's ok if the problem is caused by a change that could make the MUD better. Even though the problem was foreseen before the change.
Again, you can't say that a problem with a single spell will have to stop something that will fix the whole MUD.
I like the possibilities of a global lawsys bringing back some RP. But I agree with Orcoron yet again about some of those problems, I'd also considered that sandstorming issue.
Oh, by the way, I'm not suggesting retaining failkill as an ultimate solution. Just one that can be implimented soon and give us our MUD back while the nuts and bolts of a better system is worked out.
One last point. A global lawsys would also require a change to the code of sandstorm. Otherwise necromancers would have to stop using it, because there will be jackasses following them around and reporting them when they get into combat for easy gold.
So yes Polk, it is complicated:P
Hasn't someone already said that fines should be reset if global lawsys was put? Coding courthouses... c'mon, that's not an issue. Also, if whole Arda was open up for everyone, as I'd like it to be, FRs would be able to pelt the shit out of FH as well as the ERs.
As for the unity among ERs, yes, it would probably be destroyed, but there are more important things than that.
Well Polk, if a lawsys was implimented as it is for FRs currently. You'd just end up with the same problem. For starters, every ER would begin with low fines. So thats 500-1k per attempt and about 1k per fine per kill for every ER to begin with.
Every decent FR assassin would have high-maxed fines. So theres an immediate imbalance issue. An insentive for ERs to go out and kill and a disinsentive for FRs to do it. That ERs can earn gold much faster than an FR also needs to be taken into account (yes there are some FRs that have been here for a long time and know how to gold fast, but that's NOT true of the majority. The majority of ERs however, know from level 1 that pelting is quick easy gold. No newbie FR can max in 5 days, but I've seen some total moron ERs do it). So yeah, after a while it would even out, but the first few months would just be ridiculous.
It requires so many other checks and balances to be put in, it requires new things be coded for ERs..like courthouses. It would also destroy the unity among ERs. That unity is held together by the fact that, no matter who you are, if youre an ER and fuck with ERs your life is cut dramaticaly short.
I think Orcoron's idea is sound. Those saying there is no need to complicate a global lawsystem are still ignoring the obvious point of circumventing the lawsystem by sitting at a near-impenetrable spot for the enemy side and quitting if anyone does happen to get anywhere near you.
I disagree with you on that point Shardik. I think patrols need to be trashed as well. The idea is that the grid is open, you can go anywhere. Patrols are just fucking annoying.
Of coure there is room for tweaking things, or another, even better system to be worked out. But this will take MONTHS. I don't see this global lawsys idea being implimented for at least another 6 months. I for one don't want to have to deal with this annoying damn system for another 6 months. Removing battlepoints can be done in the next few weeks.
Complicated and problematic my ass. Hard to code? I don't think so, it's coded already, it would have just to be widened for everyone.
Hey Crosis, that's the point! Let people who WANT to put their lives on the line with no chance of reimbursement go to unregioned areas and Mordor to do it.
You can keep patrols, to keep people from going deep into enemy territory, but battlepoints blocking movement (minimizing the effective size of the game for half (or more) of the playerbase) and control of regions (allowing mordor-like pk on non-willing participants) are really the heart of this blunder.
Both of these problems can be resolved by just scrapping battlepoints, and thus region control and failkill circumvention, and leaving everything else as-is.
Keeping failkill but removing battlepoints and the ability to takeover would be devastating for ER/FR interaction. If there's no way to takeover, an ER would never be able to attack an FR in their own lands and vice versa. They could only enter to be attacked themselves. This would restrict the majority of combat to unregioned areas and mordor.
Btw, what you some of you guys are doing here is just using this as a dumping ground for any old idea that you've come up with over the years. It's counterproductive. They're trying to solve a problem, that problem is simple; The way ER/FR interaction has currently been encouraged makes the gave virtually unplayable for some, and tedious for others.
As I see it, the problem most people have is with takeovers and battlepoints creating free kill areas and blocking off large sections of the game from being used by a lot of people.
Simply removing battlepoints,takeovers,scouts and patrols while retaining failkill addresses all of these issues almost perfectly.
A global lawsys is complicated and problematic. It will also take a long time to be coded and implimented and is likely to be full of bugs when it is. Every change so far has come with bugs that people have abused.
Retaining failkill and removing all other battlepoint/takeover parts of the game could be done in a matter of weeks.
A global lawsys removes the distinction between FR/ER. Failkill keeps the the seperation and allows for free competition between ER/FR. The grid would be totaly open and without patrols or scouts you could go into the other sides territory and not be caught. Of course if you're seen then the other side can go out against you. This creates an element of risk, which is fun.
The simpler you keep it, the less chance you have of accidentaly doing something wrong.
being wanted just isn't going to work with FR vs ER
Exactly. Theme isn't something that's going to be considered if a global lawsys is put in. It's all about the _playability_. Say that word 5 times and throw your theme arguments out the window.
I dont see any reason to complicate this. I think the answer is a Global Lawsystem akin to what FR's have. (aside from Mordor) There's no reason for participation points, rp defend, or any of this.
The Global Lawsystem allows balance with pvp, protects newbies, allows killing, yet provides a deterrent.
Roleplaying needs to be a mutual experience. People have roleplayed here on the two towers since the MUD's beginning without a roleplay command, or any other form of ingame help. Merciful is a recent change that really ices the cake for roleplay combat.
Now i'm not much of a theme guy, but to all of you themepeople out there: Make a stand somewhere else. This is a change that will be very productive for the playerbase.
Sure, some drunken dwarf from Erebor would surely pay a fine for killing an eorling in Bree. Please. And again, theme arguments like 'haradrims shouldn't roam through Caras Galadhon' are just dumb. A party of ERs in that city is just as thematic as a party of Ranhoth hobbits down in Mordor.
Judging me in Edoras for killing an eorling is not same as if they judge me for killing a haradrim. Makes no sense. Still, that's not the point.
Evils are here, and they don't fit in the old mud system, so, a new system is required, the current one has problems, but that doesn't means we must go back. You are asking for the old mud, but with Evils also, and they don't fit, so something else is needed.
Also, opening up everything is bad, takes away much of theme and roleplay. Again, Evils don't fit there, we shouldn't be in Evils lands, and they shouldn't be in ours.
Shardik, you did not mention it, but I believe you are also calling for a removal of the battlepoints and region control system? If not, in what you said you have not solved the whole-red-warscape problem.
Yes, leave the FR-ER conflict in MT, Mordor and areas between, and also leave some of the region control in these areas, the player power to change the enviroment is good, to really feel that your side is winning, this is one of the best things archieved with the current region control system.
Make the deeper areas imposible/insanely-hard to access by the enemies, and tell noobs/golders/idlers to don't come out. Failkill here won't be needed.
Gaul: you have office and inn elsewhere, the Forge would be moved to Barad-Dur or Outpost, it is a minor issue.
No, you are all wrong Kanex.
You are all wrong Polk.
Sure your idea is simple Shardik, but it sucks :( Just open up everything and put a lawsys for everyone. I don't see you people whining about internal FR lawsys and it's just as much ok with theme as a global one would be.
stop overcomplicating the situation. leave failkill. allow FR/FR crimes to be dissuaded by lawsys and ER/ER crimes dissuaded by mob rule. let ERs and FRs who want to pk for free do it in MT or Mordor. can it get any simpler than that?
I agree with Pablo. Only thing I could think of is not being allowed to enter Mordor or Minas Tirith as a wanted player either...Drawing too much attention to the area, or something. Would make sense for Minas Tirith moreso than Mordor, but either would make as much sense as an interside lawsys does in the first place.
what about the sfrs/ers just going up to the top of bd, that sounds about as good as going to far harad, or knock on gates :P
Simple solution to prevent people idling in GH/inns (though west arda and far harad would still be available I guess), once a bounty hits a certain level (like lets say 10 kills) without being completed the person becomes 'notorious' and is now raidable in innrooms and guildhalls, if they want to idle after that they'll be required to have a big party backing them up to make sure they aren't raided.
Automated bounties would have the effect of people sitting in their halls while not PKing to be impossible to kill, or having a friend kill them and give them the money if there's bounty gets really high.
There's no real need to make it overly complicated. Lawsys like in the old days, if wanted can't enter West arda/FH. If you're really concerned about getting marked as a participant for RP defense, you could make it so you only get participation points if you're reported. Afterall, with fade gone you almost always know who is attacking you. Thefts would be automatically counted.
Special 'RP defend' commands just make it too complicated and will end up easy to abuse anyway. You defend and merciful them...then your buddy comes and finishes them off, etc.
Personally, I would like the new system. I'm inactive now anyway, but I don't even want to leave my hall, because even if I just go make a few hundred gold in the warcamp... there could be a couple of ERs sitting in the inn waiting to jump me. Questing anywhere else is even worse; there's no reason NOT to kill somebody. And after this people could go explore Harad quests without automatically being killed (though they still might of course). Sure, it won't be thematic to have a bunch of Ologs exploring Caras. But we used to have SoU wandering around Caras without the guards caring and we didn't mind then.
Points made about people doing things these days while wanted are moot. Fact is if FRs know someone is wanted for killing 10 ERs, they're not going to give a shit. Anyone who does will likely be bashed by the rest. The only thing allowing wanted players to hide in their inaccessible homelands will do is encourage people to multiplay and get wanted people with opposite side alts.
The contract/bounty idea (I think it was worm's) sounded feasible, so long as these particular contracts (but not others) provided the ability to raid GHs/inns. Or else the automated bounties removed raidability.
Don't know if anyone has said this. But how about we don't put a global lawsys, but put a level restriction on what can be killed. So the newbs can explore. Or somethin to that effect.
Osgiliath as an arena type area isn't any good. We have things there that should remain safe to use. Forge, post office, inn.
As Waste stated it, it seems a very clean and well-organized plan. No need to crap it up with extraneous details. If someone is killing in your protected area and has no intentions of RPing, you can either ignore him (a method that many protecting guilds have had to resort to over the years), merciful him, or just kill him outright. Chances are, he'd flee rather than die. I assume an attempt--particularly an attempt with merciful on--would have less participation weight than a kill.
Wanted people... who cares? Homelands are homelands. Most people would rather sit in their guildhall than run around wanted in West Arda--and how often do members of the four guilds with halls in West Arda go wanted (or kill vast numbers of ERs) anyway?
Jaron might be on to something. I see no reason patrols shouldn't be present in 'deep' enemy territory... if players don't happen to be there to chase you out, some element of danger should still be present.
Wow, I kind of like Worm's idea, the only problem is killers who never do anything but kill and idle in halls will be hard to get...of course, if you end up with 20k on your head, or more, you will be hard pressed to leave your hall without people knowing who are keeping an eye on you...
I dunno, I like that idea a lot actually...just some questions.
Just say No to global lawsys.
Something around dev57 will be better. Encourage FR-ER combat in some areas(Gon,S.Gon,Har,Sor,Mor) by severely crippling attackers in the deeper areas. If you want to be safe, just don't go there, if you want PK, search it there. Somewhat like Mordor was to the old mud.
The ocasional attack will occur in the deeper areas, but the killer is aware to have a high chance to fail and get killed for he is (somehow, mannaged by the system) in disadvantage.
Myrddin: As far as I can tell, there won't be any distinguishement from someone who is wanted for stealing 5gp from someone, or one who just didn't pay fines for killing 20 ERs. So hiding out in West Arda might not be as safe as your thinking.
I kinda like the idea of an automatic contract/bounty that is placed. But there should be some kind of compensation for a death. Expecially if they are going to start hurting more again.
Maybe on top of Mordor being lawless, open Osgilitah and make it an lawless battle ground area. (The city and a small grid right around it).
One final idea.
Don't make PKs FR vs ER / ER vs FR count in your murder count for fines, just make them a flat rate fine.
I certainly believe that the current system is not working. BP's and regions and failkill are bad bad broken. It occured to me after reading this discussion that perhaps we are going about this backwards. Instead of compensation for the victims, why not a global Contract system.
In other words, instead of fines, make bounties/contracts automatic and additive.
Say, everytime you attack someone with merciful off you get a 500g (or so) contract/bounty put on your head, everytime you kill someone that increases to 1000. Make it additive, so the more active and infamous pk'rs would be higher value targets. Newbs might still be killed, but their value comes at the price on your head....
Some tweaking required of course, but I think this may be a more thematic and playable way out than fines for ER/FR combat.
Thoughts?.........
How about a dev57-global lawsys synthesis?
On the assumptions that any limitations of free movement such as BPs and patrols would be removed, some form of regions still stay:
1- Unaccessable enemy territory (FH for FRs, West Arda for ERs): No access to the area.
2- Deep enemy territory (NH and Umbar for FRs, Rohan, Lothlorien, Rhovanion, NER for ERs as in dev57. I think it shouldn't include ROV though): When you're this deep in enemy territory, you become a free kill, and if you go this far to kill an ER/FR in deep into their own areas, be prepared to pay 150% fines. For example an ER in Lothlorien would become a free kill but pay 150% fines for killing someone there, same for a FR in NH.
3- Somewhat 'contested' regions (Harondor and SOR for FRs, Gondor and South Gondor for ERs, though I think it should include Rhovanion): Pretty much bordering lands, to give examples, killing an ER in Gondor or a FR in Harondor would result with fines decreased to 75%, while killing an ER in Harondor or a FR in Gondor would result in 'standard' fines.
4- The arena (Mordor): Completely lawless. No fines.
It is just an idea, numbers can vary depending on balance. I think it provides optimum security while giving you the sense of warfare with different levels of safety depending on where you are.
Uhm, and maybe you can't go to FH/West Arda when wanted.
About deaths hurting more, or getting more fines depending on how often you kill, I think that's crap, firstly because it is overcomplicated and will cause clashes with RP as said, and secondly because I believe that punishing pkers like that is an unfair way of restoring safety
Yeah, stop complicating it. Just put a standard, global lawsys. And deaths should hurt, whether you 'participate' or not.
Also, if a ERvER lawsys gets implemented, ERs will only be a different race/prof set than FRs, so to make it more difficult (as it should be), don't have a ERvER lawsys.
Maybe an 'roleplay [on|off|auto]' or something. Though this would need work:
On: The people with this on that are in combat with other people with this on are merciful'd, and in this merciful'd state, they cannot be in combat for some amount of time (seems potentally abusable: before boot go to 0 hp, get merciful'd at boot, heal up in gh, run to whip or wherever)
Off: How it always is now.
Auto: If attacked or in combat with someone with 'roleplay on' then you automatically use 'roleplay on' against them.
Something like that, with enough changes, could work, i think.
..and now perhaps you begin to realize how this idea is going to create numerous subsequent difficulties, included but not limited to RP combat affecting kill/fine 'participation levels' and going wanted for killing enemies.
Overcomplication.
Other potential problems:
1. Not paying fines - what happens? If you go wanted, what's to stop hiding in Far Harad/West Arda? If these areas are blocked, what's to stop MT citadel or BD tower and quitting when people try to break in?
Well, when you're warning somebody to stop attacking an NPC, you could maybe set some command that'd turn merciful on and make note that the attack is in defense of an NPC your guild protects, then if you're reported it could lower the fines...The command would only work in rooms with NPCs you protect.