I don't remember why. I think I was bored and he had a contract.
Ravathir absolutely, undeniably MPed when Exhalev got nuked.
That being said, the amount of success he achieved was more due to persistence than cheating.
Saying that he never cheated is absolutely untrue, and I am having trouble you could even trick yourself into believing it. He was not the worst cheater on the game, though, not nearly. People confuse being a douchebag with cheating frequently, though.
I quest uniques just to sell them to shops and rebuy them all the time also, whats wrong with that.
You people don't read.. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't MP anymore, but he sure as hell did when he was that kid who was losing 5 uniques every boot.
Lawsystem -> Law reports, and victimized of -> victimized by.
Ravathir never MP'd. If having two characters legitimately involved in a conflict against the same entity is MPing, then there is a flawed perception on behalf of the entity and the onlooker... As one of his closest friends and a mentor of sorts, I have witnessed him being victimized of blatant MP (for which there were no reprecussions against the perpetrators), and have responded in suit to every single question asking, 'Can I do this?', 'Is this cheating?', 'Why do they do it then'. At the time of Exhalev's nuke, Ravathir had the most law reports against him than any other mortal. I was behind by 2, and combined with my second most active alt, had more than any combination of typists and their respective alts in the game. All but 1 in either case was illegitimate. People use lawsystem to retaliate for things they can't handle. People couldn't handle Ravathir because he rocks their face. Greatness engenders animosity and envy. Mix that with people being weak and clown-like. You get lies, lies, and lies.
Ok I'm done. Peace.
What Lomar said!
Bakal for God.
How do you become labeled a mplayer? Just because you got alts who other people know.
OK, now that I've gotten out all that hate, I do have to admit Ravathir's improved a lot since he started out.
I'm not an expert on anything, but you're right...
he still should have been nuked before, though, when he DID cheat. A LOT.
Jakar, I was just listing the ways he cheated. I'm not saying he still does it, except for MP, but wth I'm out of date :P
Ravathir hasn't MPed in a while... Since he suicided those 3 alts.
Wow Jakar, you're really jumping to his defense there:P That the admins are too lazy to deal with mping, doesn't make you not a douchbag for doing it. That you can prevent corpselooting and claimjumping doesn't make someone who does it not a massive dickhead. Maybe this new generation are just fuckheads and us old guys are right to treat them like shit. Should it be nukable? No. But let's not get to a point where we think of people who do those things as anything other than pieces of shit.
Claim jumping and corpseloot is nothing new, it happens and you can prevent it. Deal with it. It's not nukable and nor should it be.
'Sure they're not the most honorable acts, but he doesn't do it regularly.'
Best line of defense I've heard in a long time, really.
In all honesty, I'm surprised he hasn't come and smacked you around yet. Damn it, look, I even double posted.
Malorian, Ravathir pretty much only kills when he's attacked nowadays or there is a half-way legit reason. Claimjumping and corpselooting isn't nukable, nor should it ever be, protect yourself against it and it should never happen. And everyone knows MP'ing pretty much is non-existant anymore and that ainu don't give a shit. So seriously, other than your personal vendetta against the guy, what've you got? Sure they're not the most honorable acts, but he doesn't do it regularily. Anyways, quit the bitching and maybe do something about it if he offends you that much, as Sunflash would saw less QQ more Pewpew.
and shit talking. and some more MPing. and maybe a little MORE MPing.
Oh and quitting
Hmm, Ravathir....
These are just the things I know, I don't have much interaction with him...
Corpselooting, claimjumping, spreekilling, and MPing. That's all I remember off the top of my head. And a lot of spreekilling early on, he's stopped though :) not stopped MPing though
Why? Because he doesn't cheat? You don't have to cheat to dominate everyone else.
Sure, if you mean problem player like Arawn.
If you mean problem player like Ravathir, hell no. I'm surprised neither he nor any of his alts have been nuked yet. Hmm...
They do treat 'problem players' more harshly in general, based on their history of offesense over the years, regardless of the character they are currently playing, which is kind of stupid.
They don't know what the rules are. Haven't you figured that out yet? They make them up as they go along depending on who is the person doing the thing that today is a against the rules but yesterday was not and may or may not be a against the rules tomorrow.
The rule apparently differentiates between intentionally setting off another person's client triggers and setting off their MUD trigger, which is odd...
and you're not allowed to simulate commands sent to you by the MUD?
Ah I see.
'You killed' and 'has died' simulate commands that are sent to you by the MUD. 'tells you: find blah?' simulates a command sent to you by another player that your client has to trigger. You're not gonna go around warning guildmates that tell you 'find blah?'. You're not gonna go around warning friends that tell you 'find blah?'. You shouldn't go around warning enemies who tell you 'find blah?'.
I mean why would one be against the rules but one not?
Malorian, people who use find triggers generally use a 'safe list' that not only matches onto the fact that a find is being queried and the target is so and so, but also whether the person requesting the find is on the accepted list or not. So if Manni had actually gotten a find response with that tells, the guy had obviously not done his triggers properly.
The has died thing is at the same time trickier and more simple. I'd probably recommend matching on the 'you killed' line, myself, but that's just me.
I agree you with Manni that sending someone the tell 'tell fool find Manni?' is not botting, but what's the difference between that and 'tell fool has died'?
Personally, the rule that you cannot take over people's client (with maybe the exception of finding their password) is pretty stupid as well. If you cannot control your own client and you can't make your own settings, aliases and triggers correctly you shouldn't use them. And if you blindly copy them from people you deserve it anyways!
Oh, and reading up on this thread a little bit, and in response to Tash... hum.
By: Tash
Dalkar, if Valinor ignored all minor reports so they could deal with the larger stuff first, what would stop everybody from doing the reported crime repeatedly? A law should always be enforced. A MUD with no cheaters is a great thing, but what about when you lose new players because of harassment that was not dealt with because it wasn't as big a problem as something else?
Firstly, getting warned for a tell is kinda weird. That's like the equivalent of having a tape recorder attached to your phone all the time, and having a 'Three presidents on a plane' joke chopped in half and sent to the authorities by the person you were talking to. And then going to jail or being executed for it, or something. Tells and private, one-on-one things, and absolutely do not affect a third party. And considering, as Kalmah pointed out, that you can use the ignore command in any case... if you're getting harassed, you can always ignore the bloke who's harassing you. Right?
This whole shindig reeks of familiarity to me, stuff like this used to happen all the time in primary school. 5 year old kid in grade 1 is called a 'poopie-head' by a 9 year old in grade 4, and he goes and complains to teacher, the big kid gets a slap on the wrists. I don't think the players involved here were new, though.. Arawn and Pyro could both be in grade 3, and when you have to tell teacher when a kid your own age calls you a name, then you're labelled a 'snitch' by the rest of the kids.
Bottom line, if someone insults you.. laugh at them, retaliate, or ignore. Moving back to the school example, the people who got picked on were picked on for a reason... if you were a wimp, you got treated like a wimp.
What I have been trying to say all along... Arawn, you're a big, mean poopie-head!
About stuff!
*talks*
Work is boring, there's nothing happening! Taaaaaaallkkk.
Yeah Arawn... The first half or so of my post was directed generally towards your issue and similar issues that have arisen over the past couple of months and I agree with you that they're two very different things, although there is a common link in the handling of the cases.
Fine post Manni. 'Anyway, in the past, this would be a verbal warning because everyone knew the info already, -the guy was cheating, and no harm was done.-'
I wonder if he was warned for the cheating?
What happened to you and what happened to me though, are two very different things. Yours was a misunderstanding that was easily cleared up.
Mine was a case of Admins going out of their way to find reasons to warn me and I suppose ultimatly nuke me. Because I spend my time harassing people? I'd love to know how being a bit abbraisive and occasionally calling someone a moron costitutes a case of harassment. For the odd time when I drink too much and say something stupid on the comm? Those first 3 warnings happened with something like 6 months between them. Clearly it's an ongoing and serious issue.... Warnings 4 - 5 were pure bullshit. Warned for getting warned and then warned for having warnings. Although 5 was removed. Then we have a comm ban and (I suppose) a warning for talking like a pirate (which got me nuked) along with another one for sending a tell that someone didn't like but which broke no rules.
In all the time I've been here I've not cheated once. Maybe because it's easier to catch out people who say something off colour on the comm the Admins like to focus on that, plus it gives them a good excuse to fuck with people they don't like.
Which of course makes them hypocrites. What's the difference between old players fucking with other players they don't like, using their knowledge and relative power to do so and Admins who use their relative power to fuck with players that they don't like?
When paying attention to the rules, remember the most important one is the one that says the Admins can do as they please and there's nothing you can do about it.
Petition getting rid the muds 3 strike policy, or lighten up on the nukes and dust off the old wheel, people hardly spin it, and the wheel was used for such weak warnings.
Wow, that was quite the post.
In summation: Chill the fuck out, talk to both sides, and GIVE MORE VERBAL WARNINGS.
You probably could've gotten the 2nd one removed if you had asked nicely in a mail the next day.
I'm gonna go out on what I hope seems like an objective limb to both sides of this argument because I'm probably gonna end up in trouble with someone if this doesn't seem objective.
Valinor is upset with a set of old curmudgeonly elitist players who feel that their character creation date of At the dawn of time entitles them to bitch and moan on the comm all day, berate and harass newbies on the comm, and maintain decrepit stagnant guilds while complaining about the newer vibrant ones, just because they're comprised of newer players.
To Valinor, these undesirable characteristics and actions are completely embodied by the PotUASF. I think that's a problem and I think it's an unfair generalization. It's very dangerous ground to tread when you wouldn't consider joining a guild for fear of Valinor taking harsher action against your character and even your alts.
Players who have been here 6 or 7 years are generally into their 20s now and sometimes appear to forget that a younger demographic now dominates the MUD, population-wise. That's a reality that older players must accept and embrace because it's what keeps the MUD going.
However, older players have grown very accustomed to verbal warnings! Verbal warnings have been given for years and years! Somewhere in the last year, what used to be a verbal warning ranging from gentle to stern via ainur visit, tell, or mail, has now become an immediate warning!
I have a warning from July for revealing alt info on the guild comm... Which I suppose I did, but it was one of those instances where Redbull would log off and then we'd get attacked by Spektor 30 seconds later. So I think I was just lazy about being sufficiently vague with my pronouns. Anyway, in the past, this would be a verbal warning because everyone knew the info already, the guy was cheating, and no harm was done.
Last week, Theseus (by his own admission) left his tick timer on for 13 hours while he went out the previous night. What I saw all day was Theseus going unidle in his guildhall once every 20 minutes for 30 seconds, then going idle for another 20 minutes. I had 2 thoughts: 1) Meh. 2)We're in a war and I don't want to waste more EP finding him and I definitely don't want him findbotting for BkD, so I might as well report this. So I send Theseus a tell saying 'yo'. After 4 minutes of no response (although he unidled from a tick timer), I waited for him to again stop aging and did 'tell theseus find manni?' to see if he was findbotting, a much worse offense than leaving a tick timer on. He was not findbotting, but I told Mathias about the tick timer anyway because I had wasted a bunch of EP doing finds on Theseus all day. Anyway, Theseus gets back an hour later and I got a warning for 'attempting to simulate MUD commands to set off client triggers'. This was one of the more ridiculous warnings that I've seen, even by the standards of last week's thread on ridiculous warnings. I received a mail yesterday stating that the warning had been removed, but only because another ainu had intervened for me (Thanks!), and I should not simulate MUD commands again.
So I have a problem with the original warning and I have a problem with the resolution, even though it turned out that the warning was removed. The original warning was dumb because my tell didn't harm anyone, had no way of harming anyone, and was only being used to make a more complete assessment of the situation so as not to waste an ainu's time.
The second more serious problem is a failure by Tulkas to understand what a MUD command is. Sending a tell to someone with 'find <player>?' does not simulate a MUD command. It simulates a bot trigger. A bot trigger that is illegal by the definition of 'help botting'. Telling someone 'has died.' is illegal. Telling someone 'find manni?' is not. And yet apparently it's warnable. I hope this misunderstanding of the rules does not reflect a broader chasm between how the game is played within the rules and how the ainur enforce the rules of the game.
exactly <3
I don't take any insults thrown at me on the MUD seriously, I just laugh my ass off at the creative ones and ignore any others. It's so much easier than getting upset about it. :p
Well Alkath, a was warned for getting a warning and then warned for having too many warnings. But then Tulkas removed one.
4? Sounded like 10-12 at least, meh :p
1. Don't mud drunk :p
2. Don't mud drunk :p
3. wow.. that's pretty rude, totally earned that one
4. Meh? So why weren't you given a fifth warning for having four warnings then? They can't warn people for that.. that's dumb
Talking like a pirate is against Valinor policy?
Talking shit about someone in a tell to a third party is against Valinor policy?
I had 4.
1 was for being drunk and saying fcku on the comm.
2 was for saying ohi fduer yoiu when I got the warning for the above.
3 was for saying that Culfinglin's vagina was so blocked up with dried semen that it couldn't possibly be considered gaping.
4 was for having 3 warnings.
'Personally I don't care so much, but you KNOW it's against Valinor's policy and you can get warned/nuked for it, so why do you keep doing it?' (Foraker, 2007)
I will have to agree with that. Even if this particular warning perhaps was a bit harsh.
And how many warnings did you have? :P
To be clear, I think you're a prick for saying it, I think Tulkas overreacted a little bit, and I think Pyro is the biggest and has the smallest prick for reporting you for it and/or forwarding it to the person who it was about.
You misunderstand Tireless. Pyro is enough of a prick that as soon as he got the tell he thought to himself 'Oh goody! Here's something I can report Arawn for' and then got to writing the report.
When I was a newbie, dealing with people being mean to me was really hard :( I dealt with it and got a thicker skin though, which has helped me deal with the community quite a bit. I'm not sure whether it was a good thing or not.
I'm pretty sure newbies now are subject to less harassment, and a lot of them are self-important pieces of shit because they can get into a guild at 12h aging and are able to run inside their guildhall from 10 rooms away.
Frankly, I think a good method of anonymous attempts and increased death damage would solve that problem better than easing up on harassment. I don't know. There are problems with either solution.
Pyro, however, is a prick for telling the person about whom Arawn was talking what he said. There was no need for that. I hope Pyro got at least a warning for that.
Crime? Piss off Tash it's as big of a crime as j-walking. Also I don't think Dalkar said a thing about harassment it was nuking for harmless comms. Unless you're infering that I was harassing someone.
uh, if some kid is deeply offended by some random person on the internet, perhaps they should be seeking remedial help for their low self-esteem rather than playing some text based game. Besides, for those less intelligent people out there... there's always this 'ignore' command available. However, I do want someone to petition something about people being able to ignore shouts, because Anguss' random idiotic bullshit shouts make me want to kill something
Dalkar, if Valinor ignored all minor reports so they could deal with the larger stuff first, what would stop everybody from doing the reported crime repeatedly? A law should always be enforced. A MUD with no cheaters is a great thing, but what about when you lose new players because of harassment that was not dealt with because it wasn't as big a problem as something else?
Not saying this was a good nuke, though. Just how many warnings was it?
Bit of a shitty nuke reason, that. They should really be nuking the multiplayers, the cheaters, the spree/newbiekillers and the bug abusers first, and maybe looking at this kind of thing after that. But yeah, Tulkas did come across as rather freakish and highly patronizing there.. made for a pretty weird read.
I like bunny costumes, flowers and giggling, want to get some dinner exhalev?
I'd love to know the rule I broke. Unless it's the one that states the Admins reserve the right to deny service to anyone at anytime for any reason they deem fit. It was one off colour tell about a person other than the person I sent the tell to and a comm ban that stinks to high heaven of selective punishment. Basically I was comm banned for talking like a pirate because Tulkas wanted to because he doesn't like SoTPoTUASFoR.
I understand that there are rules, and you get punished if you break the rules, and you have to accept the consequences of your actions. But it is the enforcement of these rules that are at issue, and furthermore, the rules themselves. Everything these days is much to player protective, as if we are all running around dressed up like 12 year olds in bunny costumes, sniffing flowers and giggling. Welcome to a thematically war-torn and strife-filled setting. Welcome to a place where the average player is old enough to buy porn. Seriously, things need to be restructured.
I had no warnings for anything but the odd comm remark.
Looks like Tulkas seriously misinterpreted the humour/morbid nature of Arawn's jokes.. perhaps it struck a nerve with something in his own RL. All that projection and 'benevolence' was creepy and was indeed offensive. I don't think the PoL responsibilities include dabbling in experimental human behaviour analysis. Sorry to see that happen Crab-beard, although as someone who has had multiple warnings for comm infractions and harassment, you have to know that the line to cross becomes almost inconsequential when you are in no man's land all the time. I've been there. Really ridiculous that dumb cunts like Pyro and all the other pussy, insecure, untalented, absolute sacks of filthy useless SHIT like him are able to retaliate or get their rocks off by harming people that actually PLAY this game with this law/harass report bullshit. Grow a little thicker skin, man up, and get over yourselves you dickweeds.
What I said on the comm wasn't fucking warnable. I mean come on, the guy who was saying 'You suck on guys balls' wasn't warned or comm banned. It looks like I got comm banned for talking like a pirate. It's selective bullshit.
I thought to get warned for tells you have to continue to send the person shit even after they ask you to stop.
On one hand, I don't like people being nuked for a few comms/tells. On the other...I don't get how hard it is to not say stupid shit on the comm. Personally I don't care so much, but you KNOW it's against Valinor's policy and you can get warned/nuked for it, so why do you keep doing it? Just do it in tells (if they don't tell you to stop and harass log you) or that out of mud comm that Caber had running, which I should look up the info again, since my new zmud can actually run plugins.
On a side note: Valinor shouldn't monitor guild comms. If somebody has a problem with it, the GM can and should deal with it.
I mentioned that to Tulkas to Trempk (in game), he had no comment.
'Tulkas tells you: the report today was in regards to news 58.'
Note 58 Tulkas (11/15/07 21:17) RL on **Comm**
So Tulkas admits to treating people differently based on whether he likes them or not. Good quality to have in a pol.
The thing is, the person I was talking about was not the person I sent the tell to. It was one tell, it wasn't a series of harassing tells. So the context was not 'You're a whore' it was 'So and so is a whore'.
You can call people what you like in tells, but you risk being law reported/harass reported for it, so say what you like, in tells, just make sure the other person isn't upset/an asshole.
Man that is total bullshit. You can't even call people names in tells anymore? What is this elementary school? What a clown.
Thanks for the input Rougan. I'll be sure to show my gratitude by having the second person I kill when I'm done making a new assassin, one of the innocent and utterly benevolent KoDA.
Ridiculous? I say Valinor should get rid off people like him and make the mud at least a decent place. I'd appreciate if this nuke will not be temporary, like some of the examples happened in the past.
Just think about people who haven't ever messed with anyone no matter how they seem to be stupid, immature, 'whore' or whatnot. There were people like this in T2T and there were people like Arawn. There should clearly be a distinction between the two. Thanks!
Shit like this makes me regret all the cheating I could have done and gotten away with. Or at least been less severely punished for.
It never seems to fail. the topic stays for about 6 posts, then it goes everywhere it's great!
Who the fuck is Tulkas to tell somebody that he's got issues? Fucking law report that jackass for saying that kind of shit.
My rplaying style is to be an ass, i'am a sFR/ER
By the way, the person who sent that law report was Pyro. That passive aggresive wanker.
That's ridiculous.
Wow. That's almost Draugluinesque. In fact, I think Arawn just took the title of worst nuke reason ever. Nothing like being nuked for something that's said in tells...
That's a pisser, ain't it?
Someone says in Westron: It's Tulkas
say Hello
You say in Westron: Hello
HP:230 EP:179 say So uh
You say in Westron: So uh
HP:230 EP:180 say ???
You say in Westron: ???
HP:230 EP:180
Someone says in Westron: yeah, Arawn was supposed to be nuked if he had
another infraction.
say And that was..?
You say in Westron: And that was..?
HP:230 EP:183
Someone tells you: I'll come vis, so I can tell.
Tulkas appears out of the corner of your eye.
Tulkas tells you: well, there was one that I missed... you were commbanned
for something you said a while back.
Tulkas tells you: but since your suspension.
Tulkas tells you: but then you were reported for a tell, too
tell tulkas Reported for a tell?
You tell Tulkas: Reported for a tell?
Tulkas tells you: yeah. I know, I don't *usually* nuke people for a tell.
And I wouldn't here either, if there hadn't been the other report.
tell tulkas Which other report?
You tell Tulkas: Which other report?
HP:230 EP:193
Tulkas says in Westron: I'll have to hunt it now... it will take me a
sec
Tulkas tells you: the report today was in regards to news 58.
tell tulkas I remember I was comm banned for um...I mean it was really silly.
You tell Tulkas: I remember I was comm banned for um...I mean it was
really silly.
HP:230 EP:196
Tulkas tells you: I may have asked this before, but are you really an
incensitive jerk in real life, or that just a persona?
tell tulkas Very inoffensive. In fact the guy I was talking too was blatantly being more offensive. Oh yeah, I said he sucked more than a barnacle on a whales balls..in my roleplayish pirate lingo. Ye be suckin harder than a barnacle on a whales balls. While the guy i was talking to was saying things like 'You like to suck on guys balls'
You tell Tulkas: Very inoffensive. In fact the guy I was talking too was
blatantly being more offensive. Oh yeah, I said he sucked more than a
barnacle on a whales balls..in my roleplayish pirate lingo. Ye be
suckin harder than a barnacle on a whales balls. While the guy i was
talking to was saying things like 'You like to suck on guys balls'
HP:230 EP:204
Tulkas gets the idea in his thick skull and gives an 'AH' of
comprehension.
Tulkas says in Westron: yeah, that was the other. I'd like to get rid
of all the pirates ;)
tell tulkas I think I know the tell you mean. But come on, it's not like I sent that tell to the person it was about.
You tell Tulkas: I think I know the tell you mean. But come on, it's not
like I sent that tell to the person it was about.
HP:230 EP:210
Tulkas tells you: what about today? Is it really necessary to call a
pregnant woman a whore? Does that really have a place here?
tell tulkas Uh, but she is. That she got knocked up doesn't change that. In fact it may well be a direct result of it. But that's neither here nor there, I called her that to a third party.
You tell Tulkas: Uh, but she is. That she got knocked up doesn't change
that. In fact it may well be a direct result of it. But that's
neither here nor there, I called her that to a third party.
HP:230 EP:215
Tulkas tells you: You know, I don't expect everyone to like everyone else.
But you have no filter to your mouth. I am personally offended just
reading your warnings.
Tulkas tells you: I think we've given you much too much slack, to be
honest.
Tulkas tells you: For someone to express themselves the way you do,
usually is a sign of a person that needs help. Have you been abused,
or hurt in your life? I do not have any connections in Australia, but
I could find someone for you talk to, if you would like.
tell tulkas Are you kidding me?
You tell Tulkas: Are you kidding me?
Tulkas tells you: I do not mean to offend. I have worked with many
troubled youth, and you show signs of someone who is hurting.
tell tulkas Such as?
You tell Tulkas: Such as?
Tulkas tells you: well, you seem to be bright. You are a good player. Your
warnings are all communication in nature. You show a lack of respect
for your intellegence through using explicitives. You show a lack of
respect for the worth of others with hurtful language, and show no
remorse in the pain you might inflict in doing so. In fact, it may be
that you build your esteem by putting down others who are struggling
with other problems. It takes the attention off of your own problems.
Tulkas tells you: Of course, you could just be a crass person who lacks respect for yourself and others. I don't know you well enough to
know.
tell tulkas Right. We'll I'm going to head off to work before I get this character nuked as well. Good day.
You tell Tulkas: Right. We'll I'm going to head off to work before I get this character nuked as well. Good day.
Tulkas tells you: Again, I don't mean to offend, and if you want to talk RL, I encourage you to do so in helpful ways. I would also be glad to talk to you
Tulkas tells you: about RL issues, if there is anything I can help with. If I had
Tulkas tells you: err, have read this all wrong, and these are random
warnings that just look bad, then I hope that your alt characters
will avoid the type of things that get warnings.
ll arawn
Arawn was nuked at 12:41 11/28/07
Arawn Crab-beard the dunlending Brigand (Hand of Eru)
Departed from Arda Gender: male
Age: 25d 4h 16m 52s
Nuke Reason: His warning screen resulted in a --More-- prompt! (credit nuke reason to Azaghal)
Don't suppose anyone knows why I was nuked?
have
You wouldn't of killed him if you didn't attack him while he was healing!
dunkin is amazing