Posting with the correct alt now (I got a warning because of it). Eight heroes enter the arachinid lair to face the last living offspring of Ungoliant, Shelob the Spider of Darkness. Completely unedited and has a bonus ownage on jerks from herk in the end.
It already has, and has been for years. You guys aren't that naive.
On a related note, spam this fucking log off the front page, this comment section is ridiculous.
And Daeman was only kidding anyway and we won't hear another word about it because it's definitly not happening.
Yeah, just don't ask people to mail you and sign up for it.
All I said is all the pkers should unite and mass kill:)
It is not a good idea to try and recruit people here for anything that would be considered illegal on mud
Well _IF_ someone were to do that, I don't think they'd complain about law reports, they'd just get stabbier.
Yeah, let's promote spreekilling and harassment, then moan about law reports.
You guys are a hoot.
Don't worry Alkath, this isn't going to happen it was just talk. And that is all that will ever be said of the matter.
If this would end up happen, you all would be nuked, and rightfully nuked if you ask me.
I don't think deliberately trying to ruin this mud will make it any better. I don't mean to be bitter, but it sounds pretty lame if you ask me.
You want to know what it would be like? It would be like FUCK YOU!
what would it be like, exhalev? a clan? a full guild?
Free finds for that group right here.
True, but all it takes is 3 of them not being around and the guild gets wallopped.
the mud will probably die before they leave anyways
Honestly man, seriously the MUD knows what you guys are doing. They know what kind of players you are, yet noone can do anything cause you guys do have the most players in a guild, the most active and the best killers active. Do you honestly think once your gone that people won't take advantage of that?
Alrighty, I'm done responding to this thread.
Daeman...wtf :P
Reeth, my alt was used as example and not a personal attack or anything even remotely directed at you. I'm waiting for his log-o-mania account to validate so him and you can have it out all they want :P
I'll add in BKD as well cause we did.
Noone thought Mutalator and co would go down and they did. Noone thought Megs would go down and they did. Noone thought FRA wild disappear and they did. Arda changes, to bad Durms don't realize how bad they are digging a grave for their future members.
Laudo!
That's funny, Delkin. Actually I'm pretty sure the only reason you attack us is because we actually do fight back, so keep your baseless accusations to yourself. At least we have the stones to fight you on our main chars--or would waging a fight on a throwaway alt who maintains a relationship of convenience with his main's guild be considered particularly courageous? People know what you're really about...and it's hardly courage.
I vowed i would never talk to you again, but unfortunately you continue to be nuisance to my friends so alas it must be done. I'll be waiting for you next time you and your 'protectors' are on at the same time so i might actually see you out of your gh!
Delkin is wrong. I'm not saying Tevildo is spot on; I disagree with him quite a bit as well, but Delkin's last comment is utterly disconnected with reality. Like, more than usual.
That's not true, Daeman. I'm probably one of the most defensive players on the MUD, I hate pking, and I'm constantly ESed. :p
Yea, I may not be considered a 'powerplayer', but when you have a couple skills that are 100 and some that aren't after a death, ICK
They just don't look/line up right :P
Orcoron, random killing... If you really want to is so easy.
We could log on, do who, pick a target and I can assure you if we are ready to roll said target will die:) Especially if we are darked. Only pkers walk around with ES on constantly.
Most powerplayers I can assure you abhore the fact that any skill is at 99 or lower. I know I get annoyed with anything that isn't 100. So even if deaths cost little, still not seeing all those zeros irks the shit out of me. Anyone else like this?:)
remove professions. everybody can be civilians, and live in harmony.
I smell utopia!
I dunno, I might feel like playing if they fixed guilds up, put old deaths in, and implimented pets.
Quest the same gear you've quested 100 times before. Sit around, wait for something to happen...nothing happens. Go out to pk someone..wait more..they don't go anywhere or do anything either or they do but don't go anywhere where you can attack them with any real hope of success (unless they're totally clueless). When you do kill someone you can then add another person to the list of people that will look for any reason they can find to file a law report against you.
Get bored and decide to chat on the comm and BOOM! Bye bye character, someone took offense at something you said so we're nuking you.
You can't even call out some loud mouthed psycho moron for being a dumbfuck on the comm anymore.
Bah, after thinking things over and reading these threads I've concluded that this game is fucked beyond redemption. We don't have the playerbase and the players we do have are either bitter old pricks like me, illiterate morons, psychos or deficient law reporting cowards. I think I've reached about the end of my time here.
Remove contractors then!
Summed up my point fairly nicely, however his words speak louder than mine ever could :)
Cowardice has become the name of the game. To win these days, hide in your inn room and law report.
Tevildo, my redundancy proved my point pretty nicely. You live a sheltered life in a 10 room grid. You have no enemies and you don't kill anyone. When you're at the top looking down, it's easy to say the system is good. However, when you're on the ground floor killing and seeing how it actually works firsthand, 'voodoo economics' of the game finally make sense.
If I had a level 19 assassin with 450k banked, I could destroy your guild (at the moment). You would never strike back and with 45-50 kills on your mates, your members wouldn't log on when I'm on. Even if you balled up and fought me, the gold from the bang would just be another kill on you. Welcome to weak deaths.
Actually I am sure he understands this, just the current state of things is much more comfortable for his kind. Yes, there will be people who ruin the game for others, but hey, they wont ruin it that bad, because of those low death costs. No, there's no way to stop them, but at least the victims will be able to relevel quickly from the attacks and go about their buisiness. Unfortunately, this point of view makes it very frustrating to play for people who actually want to get back at the aggressors.
Yes, Tevildo's answer is just that. Go around being very careful, be the punching bag, report all the attempts and deaths, not losing anything because of death costs and wait till the attacker gives up. It is to be able to freely exhibit this behaviour that he supports low death costs.
What he can't grasp is that not only a person who is completely harmless can go through with this, and defend against unjust aggression, but also a person who is bent on ruining the game for others and acting like a complete and utter asshole.
trigger Tevildo posts todo be redundant, eh? ;)
Let me get this 150% straight: sit there and do nothing when attacked and let the system work in your favor?
I've answered your question, Delkin. There's no need to 'do' anything but exercise some caution. If I'm feeling bored I might go grab the janitor's bucket or some goldenroot. Good times. Granted, it's not an insignificant question when applied to every group, which is why I do support intelligent changes (and not just to death penalties--to reimbursements and fine decrease rates as well; none of this stuff should be considered independently of other factors).
By the by, contract minimums were increased to 2K from 1K many years ago... to my knowledge they were never any less than that.
Urban: because that would encourage griefing-by-contracts; the person putting out the contracts is never in a place to be retaliated against. If you want to control a behavior, target the behavior rather than making large, indirect changes.
Contracts take 1 day to come to fruition. The minimum contract price is 2k (upped from the 500 minimum during the war). The contract system takes too long if you need immediate results. In other words, quit trying to displace your problems to someone else. If you need to deal with an enemy immediately, you should be able to.
I'm waiting, Tevildo.
So why not just make PK death hurt more if the victims have C's?
Because it takes time for changes to be fully felt. Also, there is now an Ainu in charge who responds to nearly every law report so the MUD is tugging him around and acting like children to get his attention. This is because they can't hurt their target or effectively thwart them any other way.
So, I've asked you three times: what would you do if a target is hell-bent on your destruction and is slaughtering your guildmates every time they leave the hall?
Sure. Or maybe I didn't say anything about sitting and waiting, or hiding, or law reporting, and that's just something you assumed because of your experience with some other guild :) One of the two.
The pissy law-reporting-as-retaliation thing didn't become a problem until the past year, yet the law command was created in '05, and the effective death changes were earlier. (Yes, there was a change in 2005, but only to which level you revived as, not to the actual loss of stats or experience.) Why would it take so long for the effects to be felt, if other factors weren't significant?
So let me get this 100% correct: to fight your enemy, you propose that you just sit and wait until they get nuked or give up?
I have a level 18 wizard who is enemied against Valacirca. I have killed 13 of them. My very FIRST kill on this character, I partied with Hazin and we hunted down Aaganara. The next time I logged on, I was in Ainu prison for spreekilling. After a brief talk with Tulkas, he told me that from 1 kill, I had received 17 law reports from Valacirca each labeling me a spreekiller and harasser. Tulkas released me from Ainu prison within 1 minute of talking with him. Despite the fact that I have been attempted about 10 times from Valacirca, I am law reported for each kill I do. (Verified with Ainu).
This goes to show EXACTLY what you are saying. When an enemy comes against you, don't fight him! Law report and hide in your guildhall. This is the way fighting in carried out on T2T since the change in deaths. 'I can't hurt them by attacking. I better law report and hide in the inn.' 'Who cares if I go 'cowboy' and destroy my attacker? It doesn't hurt them so there's no point.'
This is a basic fact you aren't getting: cowardice is the name of the game these days and it is a direct result of death change.
The real answer, Delkin, is that people have tried it. They talk a lot, then invariably get bored and go away without anything being affected ::shrug:: It's a cyclical thing... part of history. I imagine every guild goes through it every so often.
There have been clans pretty much like y'all are describing, some better, some worse. It wouldn't be ground-breaking.
Well, I asked one question, Tevildo and you didn't answer, so I'll answer for you.
If an enemy comes at you with the 100% goal of killing you, there is absolutely nothing you can do. Killing him fuels him, contracting him gives him more fuel too. Also, I've claimed my own contracts before under this new death system several times.
So, the only way you can face this enemy is law report him. Looks like the whole cycle has been revealed.
*chuckles at Alkath* It would be one scary thought. I actually put some thought into it and came to the conclusion that the ainur would nuke us for harassment.
I'm not reading those long comments, but i assume you guys are talking about my pwnage-shelob-killing-log!
but yeah, pk deaths should hurt the way they did :P
Wow guys, yeah, that would be douche-like. Don't count me in, I have better things to do than to ruin things.
You don't even know what point you're trying to make anymore, do you?
I want ERs returned to normal, where they had no professions and could only leave Mordor on missions.
I want sheriffs returned to normal.
I want the map returned to normal--nothing east of the Misty Mountains, nothing south of Tharbad.
I want light blinding returned to normal.
I want fireballs returned to normal, so they don't start combat with players until they hit, and give no warning aside from 'Torak begins casting a spell'.
I want charm and fired knives returned to normal.
I want hamstring returned to normal, and aura, and summon, and the sharp serrated blade, and the Mortal Council, and guild abilities... all back to normal, please.
We can all pick something out of the past and call it 'normal', but that alone doesn't make it appropriate for the current state of the MUD. Take a moment to consider that maybe the solution to the problem isn't a blind rollback, but something new. Can you maybe give some input on that notion, instead of just repeating the same fallacies? Then perhaps we'd get somewhere. And hey--if, after actually looking at (rather than dismissing) the relevant factors, we decide that the old death penalty is best for the 2008 MUD, you can give yourself a big pat on the back for being accidentally right the whole time.
I'm completely down. Let's do it.
I'm god damn serious.
Tevildo, I'm not sure if you're blind or simply not reading my posts. I am clearly stating that the highly specialized assassin profession has been marginalized.
And with regard to 'big new changes' that 'need testing'... REVERTING SOMETHING BACK TO NORMAL ISN'T MAKING A NEW CHANGE, IT IS FIXING A PROBLEM. Is that clear, let's try again: ARDA WAS RELATIVELY BALANCED AND FINE BEFORE THIS IMBALANCE WAS CREATED, NOW THERE ARE PLENTIFUL ISSUES DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO THIS IMBALANCE.
Ok thanks for your time.
And again, I'm down Orcoron and Daeman, imagine Pallasch and I teaming up and slaughtering GiM, god damn that would be a laugh riot.
I'd come back to full activity for that.
Sounds like it'd be fun to watch actually.
And just terrorised the general population...just became totally unaccountable douchbags...actually spent our time just randomly killing people instead of spending 2 hours waiting for the guy whose contract you've picked up to go somewhere far enough away from an innroom or a guildhall for you to attack! Ok let's do it! Let's just completely destroy this fucking game once and for all and finally get on with our lives!
*Not a joke.
Imagine if the pkers got over their ego's and we all teamed up to actually make a total pk clan. That would go down in history.
Question remains: what would YOU do if a person is hell-bent on your and your guildmates' destruction? I'm not asking a rhetorical question, I want to know what you would do.
Don't know what to tell you about the exp loss; I've only seen it fall very close to 20%.
I'll preempt you a little by saying this: I am not going to help. I would max my fines from 0 murders getting him to level 17 from 19.
Prior to the death change, there was 'balance' in the game. When people oversteps their bounds, a kill or two would put them back in their place. As Pentheus said in another thread: 'It gave structure'.
Here's a little example of how bad it has become:
I had a level 13 warrior with 80 average stats and maybe 300k exp. Since I was suiciding this character, I decided to test the system of PK exp/gold loss. I killed him 26 times in a row on another player. I lost exactly 1 avg. stat/death and a seemingly random exp loss of 5-20%. I planned to keep killing myself until I reached a point where I couldn't, however my computer froze :p.
In these 26 kills, I believe I lost 7 levels. If the rate would have continued, I would have been able to die a possible of 25-30 more times before I would be unable to fight.
Now, Tevildo, imagine that target is someone hell-bent on destroying your guild and your members. What do you do?
People, you all seem to have forgotten that the change to PK death penalties was made BEFORE the new ERs arrived. The change you're talking about was only to non-PK deaths, and was implemented because people were dying to scouts and such. If you don't believe me go look it up.
Delkin, Durmanhoth was always in it for the contract gold (except when they were at war). They'd kill their poor old grannies for a dollar-fifty. Now, with how specialized PK gearing has become, and how bountiful the other sources of gold are, there's no way to turn a profit on contract kills. You could just be in Linhir instead. It's an issue of balance... just not THIS issue.
Exhalev, is your point that assassins are marginalized and need a boost, or that they're rampant and need to be controlled? Or is it both, somehow?
Rewrite history, rewrite the dictionary, pat each other on the back all you want... bottom line, you don't throw huge changes in without testing and considering all factors (unless you're Draugluin). And if that's been done, you don't fix it by making further sloppy changes (again, unless you're Draugluin).
Amen to Orcoron and Delkin, damn straight guys.
Tevildo -> You are convoluting the situation to mask the fact you're completely wrong. You are assuming that this clear imbalance is normal, or always was normal. It wasn't. The balance was before the death nerf. All the shit you listed cancels itself out. We are looking at reimbursement versus loss, with respect to the lawsystem, and the effectiveness of the unique and highly specialized assassin profession. Marginalized? Yes, because their role in the community and their longevity have both been greatly limited and damaged. Are you able to grasp this reality? Apparently not. And what the fuck do you mean by turning on all the burners? I am asking for this universally detrimental gameplay change to be REVERTED TO NORMAL.
I didn't read any of the large posts, but here's the facts:
There are jerks in this world who have to be dealt with. Assassins deal with the jerks. Put a universal system in which favors no one and harmony will rain. Look at the past, look at now. Just change the date to 2002 or 2003 on the little log timer...each kill had a reason and there was so much more dedication and practice in it...now it's just garbage and pansies wanting death to not hurt at all.
All I know is that in the past, Durmanhoth was called on to eliminate your 'undesirables'. Death doesn't hurt any more so we don't do it. So who are you going to call on when a group of killers comes after your guild? Not us! Have fun killing your enemy 16 times only to discover that it only fuels him by giving him fine gold. Oh yeah, take the man's way out - law report. Ever wondered why there are so many law reports these days? Of course not. So, hide in your hole and pray for cheaper deaths until you actually have to face a power-playing enemy :)
Peace.
BUZZZZZ!
Incorrect Tevildo. Take your mind back to 2003-2004. Death hurt like a bitch then. There was no such thing as fail kill. There was not rampant PK.
Enter ERs and battlepoints. Free kills, random bangs all over the place, battlepoints ruining free movement and noobs (hell everyone) dropping like flies. All this shit - fail kill and lowered death costs was introduced as a response to this.
All of that is gone. We're now back to a similar situation as we were in 2003-2004 with a global lawsys BUT we've retained all the protections that were put in place to deal with a situation of lawlessness. Hence the imbalance.
People got along just fine when you could have a 5 man bang whack you with all their specials in the first round and then do 20k worth of damage to your character if they killed you. Sure it sucked when it happened but, it's a game, sometimes you're supposed to lose.
Your argument about people just wanting to be left alone is total bullshit. Go play a single player game. Don't start playing a game that has since its beginning allowed player killing as part of it's game play and then decide you don't like it and want to be left alone because hordes of player-killers are out to kill you. People who keep to themselves and don't piss people off get left alone. Maybe once or twice a year they get killed. So what? Maybe once or twice a year their connection with drop out while they're doing the carapace or the hauberk. What's the difference?
Higher death costs means that when some guy decides to be an asshole and go spree killing you can get 5 guys together and go annihilate them - rather than them trading their exp for your gold.
Why the hell have a sliding scale? We don't have two seperate games here. Go start up fagMUD.org if you don't want playerkilling to effect you. I'm sure there are plenty of MUSH games out there when you can roleplay your little heart out. Or, whatever it is you do. What is it that you do in the game Tevildo? Anything? I guess maybe you forge some jewellery from time to time. I suppose you get a lot of experience of the game from those few rooms in your gh and the ring forge.
The only person making any assertion here is you. Where is the evidence for what you say? The people arguing for a higher death costs base their opinion on evidence. The evidence being what happened in the past during a comparable situation.
Why the hell people should treat the opinion of Tevildo the Prince of Guild Rats as serious and informed is beyond me. The sandbox is in Bree buddy
Marginalizing means to trivialize or sideline something, to make it of minor importance. Not at all the same as nerfing--they're two different concepts entirely.
I've supported the sliding-scale suggestion in the past. And in this thread! (Why respond if you don't read?) As long as contract kills and guildwar kills don't increase it as much as regular kills, I like it. It would be a -targeted- change, like I've been pushing for this whole time :P
I am just going to say that your last argument is total bullshit, Tevildo. We could take away backstab, camo, lethal precision and make skills capped at 80 for assassins. I think this would qualify as 'marginalization' from anybody's point of view. And yet the 'last 100 pk logs' will still all contain assassins due to the little 'hunt' ability.
There's a mild version of what Exhalev asks for. 'Increase pvp deathcosts for people actively participationg in pvp'. What is wrong with that suggestion?
What I describe as 'voodoo game mechanics' is this: claiming that a blanket change will have a targeted effect, in the absence of any evidence (i.e., not just some guy's assumptions). As simple as that. You just don't turn on the oven, the microwave, the toaster, and all four burners of your stove just to cook some ramen.
Yes, things were once different. A lot of things were once different. We could go back and forth all day with it--death penalties are lower BUT there's universal lawsys BUT there aren't scouts BUT weapons are stronger BUT healing is more plentiful BUT we don't have fade BUT we do have evade BUT there's so much more land BUT homelands are off-limits, etc. etc. If you aren't willing to take into account the many, many changes that have taken place, you're not talking about balancing anything. (Valinor's been having trouble with this concept too.) You can't exclude things as you desire then talk about the 'big picture'.
The 'killer/victim' dichotomy that's being described by Exhalev is a false one. Most people, most of the time, are neither. The viewpoint of the uninvolved person is one that must be respected because it is the norm. Generally, these people don't wish to be either victims or killers; are they not also 'fully entitled to enjoy the game in their respective fashion'? A universal death change would concretely disadvantage them (remember that it includes non-PK deaths) and only offer the unproven possibility of a decrease in PK deaths over a given span of time. Those who take no note of this obviously have skewed perspectives.
As for professions being marginalized... If someone wants to count how many of the last hundred PK logs contained no assassins, and then come back and try to make a point, that'd be fine.
I'll be honoured to be featured in more than one of your departure logs bro, been busy myself lately. Take care for now.
Oh, and btw, I've been trying to snag you on MSN but I can never seem to catch you. I'm planning on featuring one of your chars in my parting log (which is taking so long because of classes, not because I'm making it super good). Since we never got the chance to do our dialog thing, I'll be writing your lines in myself. If you really object to this, send me a message on MSN and I'll replace your name with something generic like 'A shadowy [race]' or whatever.
Am I clueless and lazy? Without asserting any kind of mastery of the field (As I have often said, I was never better than mediocre in the PK arena) I think I can say pretty confidently that I was a PKer - When I quit I had 40 kills and... I think 45 or 50 failed attempts on my record, plus maybe 4 or 5 kills in lawless lands, plus all the kills/attempts I've been in on but not the leader of. I'm not trying to brag. I know if you took any 6 months that Winnetou, you, or a host of other PKers played their killcount would be higher. I'm just trying to establish that I do in fact possess the perspective you describe.
Now, that being said I think Tevildo might not have as accurate a perception of the situation as he might if he were a killer. On the other hand, while I know you have experienced being the victim, I think you have _forgotten_ what it was like to be a non-PKer. PKers absolutely can be as one-sided and ignorant about the other side as non-PKers. I want to preface this next sentence by saying that while I do insult Ravathir's typist a fair amount, this is NOT meant to be a jab at him. Ravathir was not always a PKer, but I posit that he doesn't remember what it was like before. If he did, I don't think he'd do or say many of the things he's done or said. Likewise, the majority of the individuals who are commonly named 'griefers' or 'bad PKers' by Tevildo and his lot are people about whom I would say this.
You're sitting on the fence, Sean, between the two worlds, just like I did. You're a little more on the PK side. I was a little more on the non-PK side. Not everyone who disagrees with you is the villain which you describe, and those who fit the bill may not have flawless reasoning, but I think they can come up with a reasonable conclusion none the less.
Go Tevildo! Go! Dismiss anything brought to you as evidence for a different opinion! Do it in style, do it with tiresome dry wit! Do it with willful ignorance, the genre you evidently support wholeheartedly!
Let's boil this down for once and for all: A) I am insane. Correct. B) There was never any voodoo game mechanics suggested by any of my petitions. You just thought voodoo and mechanics sounded cool in the same sentence. Good try. C) I never suggested new shifts or changes, simply a RESTORATION OF BALANCE D) PKers have been both victim, and killer, while victims are generally, even by your own delineation, solely victims. There are two perspectives here: the killer, and the victim, both distinct, and unique to experience and gameplay history. When I suggest that someone who has never been a PKer: [Has never understood the intricate requirements of that =unique= role in the community, has never seen life through the eyes of someone who sacrifices so much to play in that style, someone that is -dominated- by their only realistic outlook (The victim's perspective)] I am following perfect logic. Logic that is reinforced ad nauseum by the chronic ignorance of the victims concerning PK! You yourself said you had a solid grasp on 'the PKer's perspective', simply by reading logs. Man, you are clueless, as is every other victim, you cannot get this experience vicariously, sorry.
Alright I'm going to make this as concise as possible: Deaths were nerfed as a patch to the rampant random slaughtering that happened in BP days. There were no reimbursements. This acted as both a safety net, and an encouragement to play the game in the style enforced by the BP system. THERE IS NOW A GLOBAL LAWSYSTEM. The lawsystem was never nerfed in accordance with BP times because there was no need. There is an -imbalance-. This is CLEAR. Without going into vast detail about how this imbalance has an incredibly, and entirely obvious negative effect on the game, lets look at the attitudes and motives of the proponents of either side.
Tevildo's side: Comfortable with your cotton candy deaths. Too lazy to care. Constructs arguments simply to maintain their easy-mode gameplay. Absolute disregard for true game dynamics, PK interaction, or anything of the like. Fully entitled to enjoy the game in their respective fashion, but also required to respect others volitions if they are to be respected.
My side: Highly aware of the imbalance in the game, and disgusted with it. Expresses the facts to enlighten those who are too lazy/comfortable to give a fuck about the horrendous imbalance in the system that marginalizes professions and typists alike. Met with harsh resistance by clueless, lazy individuals, who demand respect, without looking at the big picture.
Hopefully that does it.
Even when I don't like what Tevildo is saying, I like how he says it so much more than his opponents :P
It might, I guess. *shrug
Scroll down, Orcoron. What you're so shrilly trying to argue has already been addressed. As for which uninvolved people have been recently PKed, the answer is and always has been 'VC' (sorry, guys).
But, y'know, keep being like that. What's a comment page without some zany capslock hi jinx? Maybe we'll get to hear some AOLspeak next. Good stuff.
Malorian, it would actually. Since they would have to spend more time golding anyways, it only leaves more opportunities to kill them. When old deaths were brought back in TnT for npc deaths, I was level 21 and messing around and when I died to an npc I dropped all the way to level 18, it was harsh
maybe we're all not powerplayers! huh! think about that!
*giggles*
If death hurt, I doubt it would stop powerplayers from doing what they do... it's not like they have even close to a shortage of gold/experience.
substantiate!
Don't be so pretentious. Since you appear to be so up to date with the problem, who are 5 people who don't participate in PK who were random killed this past 7 days? This past 14 days? And who did it?
You can just assert that there is an issue without anything to substatiate it.
And I guess the whole point of my last post just went right over your head. Without death hurting, what's stopping people from being absolute cunts? Their conscience?! HA!
Willful ignorance is the best ignorance of all.
You know Orcoron, not every randomkill/newbiekill/etc. is posted on the log page. Most aren't.
Oops! Oh yeah!
Way to make an issue out of people's fucking imagination Tevildo. The people who get killed are usually the same 10 people who ARE player killers. So what if every so often some random guy gets killed? It's not like it's a constant every day problem that people have to deal with. Every so often they cross the wrong guy or someone in their guild does and they get fucked once or twice and then go about their business. We all got fucked when we started and we didn't all shit our pants and run to the fucking Admins for protection like little fucking cunts. And back then deaths actually hurt.
And why the hell does the goal have to be putting the hurt on douchbags? Why can't the goal be to fuck over whoever you want because you can? Who the fuck says we have to be moral crusaders on this game? Why the fuck can't we be asshole bullies? Don't like it? Do something about it then pussy! OH YEAH YOU CANT BECAUSE DEATHS DONT HURT SO SUCK MY BALLS BITCH ILL DO WHAT I WANT!
*Tip: I didn't do more than skim his comments nor do I care to.
Pentheus--You can point to certain people and say they're 'bad'; they randomly target people who aren't capable of defending themselves and generally act in a way harmful to the longevity of the game. You can also point out the handful of honorable PKers who do it mainly to defend their friends or guild, or to fulfill contracts in a professional manner. I wouldn't contest this. We can all point to one end of the spectrum or the other and make a statement about their effects. The problem with this is that there IS a spectrum, NOT a clear-cut division. (Is it a bell curve? I'd say no, it's biased toward the negative end, although these characters tend to have shorter lifespans.) The upshot of it is that you cannot expect a blanket change such as 'increased death penalties' or 'altered fines' to change a phenomenon that starts with PK (the infraction) and ends with PK (the revenge). You need to actively target the desired goal--putting the hurt on douchebags and discouraging median PKers from sliding down toward douchebag behavior.
I don't personally have a problem with petitions written in an arrogant tone--either the idea is good, or it's not. The problem I had with Berzelius's petitions was that they came across as insane :) He's a smart fellow, certainly, and at times is a pleasure to play with, but it's impossible to agree with someone whose two perpetual arguments are 'I know best through my unique personal experience which no-one can ever match, particularly the person who disagrees with me' and 'Trust me, these voodoo game mechanics will work. Just trust me.' Right, and I'm going to vote Republican next. Sh-yeah. We did concur that reimbursements should be determined relative to the victim, not the criminal, though. (Valinor disagreed on the grounds that a lowbie thief SHOULD be able to make a profit on a death. Go figure.)
Delkin--I'm fairly sure sliding-scale death penalties would take contracts and guildwars into account. Any proposal I supported certainly would.
Would, then, your concern be addressed if instead of only counting murders, it was some kind of criminal record index with contract status weighing in as well? ie the most painful death would be on a high value contract mass killer with a ton of thefts on his record, and while a kill on a thief would not hurt as much, it would still hurt much more than someone with no criminal record?
I like the second option better because it is better able to be amended in favor of mutually amicable compromise.
As for the side that just sits there and takes it - they're sitting there and taking it. That's not a 0 value proposition. It hurts them. It gives the aggressor guild a slight handicap, but really not that great of one.
'Delkin - I liked the petition in response to yours, and I don't quite understand your argument against it. '
I'll explain my position via an example:
Delkin kills 5 targets and then gets ganked. Delkin loses 3 million exp and 10k stats. Woo-hoo. Delkin is pissed so wants revenge on the people who killed him and those who are in their guild or clan or whatever. Delkin wants them to feel the same damage he felt, so he kills each target 3 times over the space of a few days.
The system is a great idea, really it is. However, it wouldn't provide the satisfaction of revenge, guild wars would favor the person who just sits there and takes it, the color of the game (a mute argument for many of you - you hate personality :P) would greatly diminish - outliers will be discouraged...
Basically, the proposed leveled deaths favors the pacifist. The killer gets 0 reward from completing a contract or seeking revenge. Why would I kill some level 18 who just stole MELS? I won't because since he didn't actually commit a murder, he won't hurt more! Or, I'll have to kill him 3 times to do my desired damage.
Another example - some jerk off keeps hiding around me and stealing all my kills/looting everything/stealing my gold/everything. By killing him, I'll be hurting myself...So, I should just let him go his way and keep doing it :P
If people stand more to lose from deaths, they won't random kill as badly...the effect of larger bangs is temporary as those without 'skill' get killed off to the point of ineffectiveness. So yeah, bring a bigger bang and take 1/3 of his EXP each time you kill him. So in other words, instead of killing your enemy 50 times, kill him 10 and he's level 9 and the war is over. Don't reinvent the wheel here. The system worked prior to ERs.
2. That 'good PKers' protect the non-PKing population from 'bad PKers'. Any such division is artificial.
I disagree. There just aren't enough 'good PKers' as you put it to counteract the other side. I argue the division is critical; If all PKers were Alkaths, high death penalties would be fine and you would support it - because you probably would virtually never be attacked (Most of the problems you complain about would be gone, so people would be less pissed at you, so you'd be attacked less, so the majority of PKs that took place would be against people you dislike, so you would appreciate someone being an asshole and consequently being levelbashed into the ground and you would probably be noticed much more for the things which are universally appreciated or ignored such as your story competition and much less for things which bug people) <-- longass sentence, sorry.
But hopefully you get the point. The distinction between so-called 'bad' PKers and 'good' PKers is not only reflective of nature (and not artificial), but critical.
3. That non-PKers actually want PKers running around PKing on their behalf. Chances are, they want to be left out of that part of the game entirely. That's why they're... non-PKers!
If someone sat in the forge perpetually preventing GiM from practicing their craft (though I would never have done that, I am and have been for some time capable) I'm pretty sure you (non-PKers) would want said person killed. For that matter, I'm certain your hitlist <0 so , according to you, GiM is a PKing guild.
(Koz) 5) by 'you' I, of course mean the non-PK population. Like with petitions when any decrease of PK effeciency was welcomed, you, as a large size of a mud population do determine the course of the mud to some extent. If the whole MUD had my views, don't you think things would change by now?
I became a PKer (though not a good one) about in the middle of when ERs were out and lawless. I opposed MANY of the petitions that Tevildo opposed, but for different reasons. Most of the time because, and I mean no offense to anyone, the majority of the major PKers are not very good persuasive writers. I don't mean this as an insult to anyone. The best representatives of the major PKers as far as writing is concerned still have difficulties: Berzelius, probably the absolute best amalgamation of good writing skills and good PKing skills, very often in his petitions comes across as condescending. I'm not trying to say that non-PKers are uber-writers and PKers are grunts. I'm just saying that the people who would be capable of convincing everyone on both sides to agree with them are in general not the big PKers, so they rarely wrote approvable petitions, so they got shot down.
To counterbalance this, there were a very small number of petitions which were (in my opinion) written very well with excellent arguments which got shot down. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the situation isn't as simple as 'non-PKers fucked up the PK system'.
Delkin - I liked the petition in response to yours, and I don't quite understand your argument against it. I think a good consolation of the two would be to increase ratio between fines paid and fines received, then decrease how much you receive based on your current fines. (If your murder fines are 10k and you get 5-manned, your total reimbursements would be capped at, say, 2k or 2.5k; if your murder fines are 1k and you get 5-manned, your total reimbursements would be capped much higher) I think if more people had been willing to discuss petitions and settle for ideas which weren't EXACTLY what they wanted (on BOTH sides) more progress would have been made. Many partial solutions are better than no complete solution.
But it's all academic now.
Before anyone gripes about my long post or that I'm still reading the logpage after I left, my log is almost done and I'm on break at work... and very bored. :*
How would increased death penalties decrease the ability of problem players to escape attempts? If your answer is 'larger bang parties'... well, that's another unproven theory. There are alternative suggestions that make far more sense.
Historically, non-PKers have offered many logical, targeted ideas for limiting the random/stupid attacks. For example, there was a proposal that necklaces should only take ears from people who also have necklaces. It would have removed one silly reason for attacking the uninvolved. It was shouted down for being 'whiny', with certain people disingenuously claiming that nobody cared about collecting ears. A sliding-scale death which had larger penalties for those who had committed more non-contract, non-guildwar kills was discussed extensively but was greeted with thunderous silence from self-proclaimed 'good' PKers. (This is the idea mentioned by Delkin below, which he posted while I was writing this ;). We now have double-tap prevention measures.) Any idea which didn't potentially create trouble for the general non-PKing populace simply hasn't gotten fair consideration.
Overall, people just want to be left alone. PK and pstealing (to a lesser extent) are the only game elements that significantly rob people of game enjoyment and hard work; clearly there should be incentives to direct PK inward in the PK-scene where it's intrinsic and welcomed, not outward to where it inconveniences everyone. This is self-evident. Do any assassins care about this? Other than the 'guild protector' type, not really. They prefer their voodoo game mechanics. It's easy to see how the majority of players think it's just a power grab--assassins trying to increase the damage they can do for their own benefit. Since many assassin are arrogant, self-important bastards to begin with, can you blame them?
For the record, I'm rarely attacked by the problem people we're discussing, and I can fend for myself. I (and those like me) don't need a Big Brother. The issue is when they screw with less experienced people or just act like scumbags. They pollute the game environment no matter what they're doing; a countervalue campaign against them does little or nothing to improve the atmosphere. Even if they were getting banged on a constant basis, they're still aggressive and stupid. The solution is to channel their aggression and stupidity somewhere else, not to constantly be reacting to it.
Yeah, I'm in agreement with Koz. During the beginning of Dung/Durm war, we found ourselves unable to damage our target. People like Derk and Redbull could be killed very easily, but they just used that gold to pay fines. We killed Derk 17 (seventeen) times in the space of a month and at the end of it, he was level 18. The lowest we got him was after 4 kills (he fell to 16 from 18). The current system is good for protecting newbies but not good for equilibrium of the game...here is what I proposed in petition.
-All NPC deaths stay as they are now.
-When a level 10 and under is playerkilled, they receive current (weak) death penalty.
-A level 11 and up receives old (strong) death penalty from PK.
It's interesting to note the number of votes to age in my petition. In the first week, there were 20 yes votes and 90 no votes. The yes votes still had a higher age count.
A petition in response to mine stated: 'make death penalty dependent on recent murder counts of the killer'. So you kill 5 people, get killed, you lose a whole lot. The idea is good for numbers but a unifying code shouldn't go on a case-to-case basis. Also, it would encourage killers who are after revenge to double, even tripple-tap their target just to do the damage that kills used to do.
In answer to Tevildo:
1) no retaliation brings encourages repeated offences
2) although there are 'good' PKers, this is not important. An asshole usually pisses of a lot of people. Some of them will be PKers or will have good friends that are PKers. So yes, in a sense you are protected from those assholes by those that the asshole offends in some way.
3) see point one. PK is the a very interesting aspect of the mud for a good size of the population here, and the only interesting aspect for a few. PK cannot be removed. PK can, however be turned from a serious crime with certain punishments into just a means of annoyance. This is happening. What it means is that a lot of people will be very very annoyed over and over without any ways to stop it.
4) 'douchebaggery' PK will lead to large gangbangs on the perpetrator. Right now, a)the perpetrator can dodge them more easily than before and b)even if the gangbang succeeds loses nothing. if the perpetrator were to die more often and with greater costs he would be busy relevelling for a good time that is otherwise spent on paying fines for killing you/ running around trying to find you and all that fun.
5) by 'you' I, of course mean the non-PK population. Like with petitions when any decrease of PK effeciency was welcomed, you, as a large size of a mud population do determine the course of the mud to some extent. If the whole MUD had my views, don't you think things would change by now?
*IF YOUR IN THE PK GAME. Bah i suck :(
Yeah the random killing/spree have gone up alot, now i would think it is mostely because evils was released, but also alot of other factors, like it is extremely easy to not be killed if your not in the pk game compared to before, so just like Koz said, the random killers can just run around killing clueless targets and then if anyone tries to kill them back they just break or run to there inn.
Stronger deaths = less killing
It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of history.
The problem with that argument is that it assumes all sorts of things. These are:
1. That people feel a need to retaliate against any real or imagined injury, or to have people retaliate on their behalf. If this were true millions of gold would be tied up in contracts right now. Clearly not the case.
2. That 'good PKers' protect the non-PKing population from 'bad PKers'. Any such division is artificial.
3. That non-PKers actually want PKers running around PKing on their behalf. Chances are, they want to be left out of that part of the game entirely. That's why they're... non-PKers!
4. That retaliatory PK would happen with greater frequency than random or douchebaggy PK. Why would the retaliatory motivation receive a greater boost than the griefing motivation? It doesn't work that way now, it didn't back when death penalties were higher; why would it if the penalties were increased in the future?
5. That I am somehow preventing death penalty increases. I don't have that authority, buddy. I argue against this whenever it's brought up because it's based on a fairy tale, not because my words have any bearing on what direction the MUD takes.
Tevildo, you just don't get it. You and the majority of others. PK is not only a tool to screw people, it is also means of retaliation. PK _should_ be effective. I assure you, if the changes that I mentioned were made, all of you would have less trouble from Gizmalin and CO, because they would die more and would spend more time releveling. In my time, dodging a well-organized 5man was something to be proud of. Right now it is not much of an accomplishment. But you and those like you instead of giving those that can and want to protect you the means to do it instead limit them in this ability, allowing random PKers, newbie killers and general assholes run around unchecked. Sure you lose less every time they nail you. But they will nail you much more often. I believe thay YOU are much more of a negative concept of the mud than any Herkimer,spree killer, or newbie killer.
Lobo..Lobo..BRING BACK SHERRIFFS LOBO!
ok, the major opinion is normally the dumbest one... but that are some statements, that everyone believes, that not even the greatest discordianist or ceticist could deny. Statements like 'Cogito ergo sum' or 'Herkies are a bunch of idiots'.
It's not hate, just a big laugh. I don't hate anyone over a text game, but i do annoy. =p
Ya and that alt is the reason you had no phial or mysterious amber vial in the Gizmalin log. Pwned!
Guruk was namechanged to Falgor at 13:15 01/4/08
Guruk the dunedain One-Arm Bandit (Shadowspawn)
Departed from Arda Gender: male
Age: 16d 11h 37m 42s
Guruk is a servant of the Dark Lord.
Safooma.
And I'd like to ask: Who are these people that 'kill', that Tarquin and co. should be attacking? Can you please list them? Alkath? They've killed him. Skyman? Died many times. Any others? Ahh.. hmm.
I ment to herkimer :P
He made an alt already adoni...
Most of us still don't believe that allowing random-attackers to do more harm will control them in any way. Most of my friends who have trouble with these people are not PKers, and increasing death penalties won't make contracts more appealing. The bad-Herkies don't seem particularly attached to their characters anyway. Otherwise, I agree with what Kozlodoev said.
Hoshkebosh owns you all.
Berzelius, when you comming back btw? We cannot however do any boarding as i've torn my ACL, but we can still chill.
Berzelius the dwarf Orc-target (Impartial)
Not present in Arda. Gender: male
Age: 8s
I thought you had to be level 10 or 1 day old to have a Log'o'Mania account?
I agree about the restoration of death loss balance, and specials per round etc. Indeed, the behaviour you describe is a possibility Koz, but its not a reality. The massive law reports can be much more accurately attributed to people being push-over, spineless, whining pussies, with no other means of retaliation.
I can feel the love.
Berzelius, to be fair, if, for instance, you would decide to be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole and try and ruin the game for as many people as you possibly could, it would be near impossible to 'deal with you within the sphere of the MUD'. The instruments just aren't there. I am not saying that the Gizmocrew is ruining the game, I have not had enough dealings with them yet, I am just stating that it is possible to be an utter piece of shit, but get away with it. Hence the hate, the massive amount of law reports, etc. etc. Higher deathcosts + the return of the ability to do several special attacks in one round would straighten all this out the natural way.
And to me it remains a mystery, that Lobo, a very intelligent and clever man himself, has the capacity for boundless, ignorant hatred. Oh well, to each their own.
I still don't understand how Berzelius - my dear friend and such a clever person, whom gave me the pleasure of a lot of intelligent conversations about various subjects - can be friends with those guys... c'mon, the smartest thing that ever came out of a herkie's mouth was their dog's cock
Oh my god, I think Berzelius is infected!
First of all I'd like to say that neither Kalmah or Guruk have any idea what the fuck they're talking about. Secondly, what is with this fascination with Herkimer? Are you all too weak, pathetic, untalented, unskilled, ignorant, and stupid to deal with them yourselves? Within the sphere of the MUD? You spend enough energy whining like malnourished babies to power a small European mountain-side villa. If they're so 'dumb and awful', how hard would it be for you morally righteous, gifted MUDders to deal with them? Get the hell over yourselves, and suck it up. The tendancy for people to discriminate/become prejudiced and derogatory in a competitive setting is one thing, but to take it this far just shows how disgustingly sad you people are. I've -been- to Herkimer, the people are nice OOC, its an alright town by any standard. Its just so easy for you spineless numbskulls to pick a geographical location and dump all your bitter hatred I guess. Grow up wankers.
Erm, Nathicana introduced about 15 level 1 hobbits to the game for a project or some shit. Now some of those have grown up into the 'Herkies' of today.
That was long after you were created, Adoni.
I'll still hate him for it. Also, he has to somehow be the link to all these kids playing
Those kids you refer too are Myself, Armath, and Hoshkebosh. No one else from Herkimer that plays this game started playing because of Nathicana.
Nathicana single handedly ruined the MUD. Also, his ability to teach English is clearly lacking, or maybe it was just the students that didn't have the mental capacity to take in what he taught.. I guess I'll have to go on that since there are those few smart kids from his class. I have to wonder if Nathicana intended to ruin the mud because why would he bring those kids here knowing full well they're retards
haha, yea, I spent a good 3 hours trying to help tingol use the converter that I used...never could get it to work.
Nice! Sad that yet again I am tied in to the 'Herkies'. Nice job on shelob though, too bad you didn't do it when i was still around you could have gotten 50k out of it. I would also just like to add, Nathicana is one of the best teachers that I have ever had. The year that I started playing in 2003 is around when he stopped playing the mud that much as well. He stopped teaching in Herkimer around December of 2005 to be a principal at another school. The 'Herkies' that you refer too now, have started up this game on their own because of friends playing and what not.
I just posted because Tingol couldn't convert it and get it coloured. oh wtf am i doing, answering that idiot's comment... i'll just stfu
Well now there are 2 of the same kill. I guess that is a start, just ask all in the party to post there version and you will have plenty of shelob logs.
But there aren't many of 'em, Kalmah. thank you kelos, that's the kind of comment i expected ;)
meh, shelob logs are boring to read
So sad when Herk talk suffocates a nice log of killing Shelob.
Nice job guys!
I doubt T2T affected their academic achievements much at all because being the people they are, they would just be addicted to WoW or something :P There are the odd really smart people from herkimer on T2T, but the rest of them just have learning impairments
[new] Date: 21. Jan, 2008, 13:50:52 By: Vermond
I wonder how T2T affected the Herks academically.
hahaha if t2t affected them academically similar to how it affected Croats when we started playing it at 1998 than it is devastating and it is punishment enough for acting like assholes here:-P
I wonder how T2T affected the Herks academically.
Maybe not anymore Daeman, maybe you've grown up a bit since. But at one point...
Dude, I don't force my playing style or how good I am on anyone at all. Everyone who isn't an enemy knows this:)
heh.. nothing more to be said, Orcoron and Lobo summed it up quite nicely
and hell i like wine, Bola
The problem with Herkimers (most of them, there are exceptions of course) is that they aren't Tolkien fans, they met this game because a stupid mud-addicted teacher thought it would be a good way to study tolkien or whatever. How many herkimers rp? Ask a herkimer what was numenor, or where is Gabilgathol, or what was made of the nauglamir after Thingol died. They never read it. To pass the exams they only needed to create a full clan or whatever... The game is by fans, for fans, for fun! But Herkimers fun relies on ganging up and attempting to ruin others game experience, like in this log, where a group of old mud friends try to do something exciting and they noobly attempt to 2man a four man party.
<3 Orcoron's comment. Every time this guy speaks I love him more.
First, congratulations for killing Shelob
Second, I'm a little confused about these last comms. If gizmalin and cruice say that lobo is a traitor, will every ER attack him? I don't think so. I could understand if ERs were lawless. At that time, you could label someone 'traitor' and get all the ER community to attack/comm he's online. Nowadays I think its a totally different situation. There are fines. I'm pretty sure this RP works only for mordor, a lawless place (so convenient, isn't it?). Now that it looks like Cruice and Gizmalin are enemies with Lobo, I really wanna know if any of them will go after him outside mordor. Please, let us know Lobo.
I'm also confused about something else....wasn't there a log of you 3 partying to kill 2 people in DG just a few days ago? Looks like things changed from water to wine.
Again, good job with Shelob.
Gizmalin only cares about artificially inflating his sense of self-worth by trying to be a good (feared?) player killer on a computer game. There are plenty of people who have fun pking but most don't put the kind of time or effort into it that he does.
You can see how it developed. When he was a newbie he did a few things that got him some attention. All of it was bad attention but when you're lonely and starved of attention, any will do. So he gets a reaction doing it, and that fulfills a need in him.
It's very unhealthy, hopefully he'll realise how hollow it all is soon. There's no real point in criticizing him. He'll just assume you're jealous or mad at him because he's pked you at some point. He likely won't understand that it's the way he goes about things and acts that grates against people. You can see it in the personalities of others who do it to the same or a similar degree, and really he's not different from any of them. Think Duncan, Baklen, Fyng, Winnetou or indeed anyone who places an inordinate amount of meaning into being 'the best' (or at least a really good) player killer in the game.
All of these guys have redeeming qualities and are decent people for so long as being decent to you doesn't interfere with their place within the game pk community.
It's the internet, what can you do?
Ok, enough amateur psychology from me.
Funny, Gizmalin calling on the ER unity card. Hah. I guess Manevr, Razakel, and Herakles don't count as kills on ERs? I guess it only counts if the ERs being attacked are him or his friends.