Discuss
for having a girlish figure
Yes I do.
What was A's nuke reason, anyway?
Bug abuse?
Oh no you don't. Last word.
So, one started with an A, and the other with a W.
short is like...I can remember that long ago. Probably a few months though, yeah.
I don't trust you! But I suppose it depends on your definition of short. Is 6 months ago short?
I don't know if revealing nuked chars is allowed on the log pages.
But trust me, there were 2.
It was only one character
I am the greatest fucking Rockband singer ever.
What?
Eek vendetta and no Bakal i am
Well, you got 2 chars nuked in a very short timespan, hirgail.
They're never letting me back:P
I miss you terribly, Hirgail. I hope you are let back on soon. The game's not the same without you.
*smirks*
Pretty much fuckhead!
Hirgail's rules of internet amusement: All insults are called for unless Hirgail has the day off.
These personal insults are uncalled for!
Also, did Norin insult Riise? Eat a contract, you Swedish bitch.
Your mum's a wanker.
Wanker;P
and yes I forgot to add that in too..
and figured it would be worth mentioning!
no, I forgot to add it in
You could have easily said that in one post Shabba. I see what you're trying to do..
but male, definitely
he might not be young!
And I'll say it again. I'll not be talked down to by a disturbed young man pretending to be a female on the internet.
You said that before
Be it 500 or 76000 Shabba, the last word will be mine!
Except it's not even going to close for another few days..
No. Last word.
die Hirgail
goddamn it I wanted 500
support.
:: pulls the plug ::
life
no
have
you
Hirgail,
mine
is
500th
finish this:
one day,
Hrm, what, like 4 more now?
k.
Watch me.
lies
Whatever happens, I will have the last word in this log. Be it at 500 or 76000.
It'd also be really funny. ***
I'd be really funny if a moderater closed the thread at 499.
//DO IT//
might as well
Should this reach 500?
14 comments to go.*
15 coments to go
Oh lord, what is that retard ugly Riise doing here? Dalkar, 1001 curses upon you for putting his name here... eh.
Hah, man, is the apacolypse upon us or something? Bakal and Vijraihn agreeing with Trempk!?
I can finally comment. All I can say without risking jeopardizing my remaining characters on the MUD is that I am disappointed and disgusted with both the toxic attitude of the Administration as well as the playerbase. I do, however, accept these things, and have little objection. I agree absolutely with everything Trempk, Bakal, and Orcoron had to say on the matter, before they started getting silly. I hope this will be both the last time I see something like this happen, as well as the last time I agree with Trempk. Take care everyone.
I am probably the greatest fucking Rockband singer ever.
I am starting a vendetta against Grozin. He is evil, wicked, and therefore must be destructified.
Stopping this thread is against the spirit of the logpage. You will all be removed!
Alkath be evil!
Alkath is atheist. :(
Again, it's 10days, not a week.
Last comment. Amen.
who the hell is Ruben? Stop dropping names!!!!!
I do know Sarys though. Well know, i know who he is. Well not really but you know......
Actually it was 29 after you posted your comment, noob.
Check out the Edelidan gets banged (second most commented log), you can still comment on it, but I dont think the amount of comments changes :p pretty weird :p
Only 30 more to go! Don't let the fire die out!
Shabba you suck
The thread should never close and always be at the very top of the list for all our flaming purposes
Admins, can you please put this on the top of the log list for default so it's easier for us to comment? Thank you.
<3
SHABBA-DABBA-DOO!!
Dave Mustaine is a ginger.. but one of the good ones
Didn't he meet Sarys and straddle a horse with him? God, if only Ruben played today!
Ah well yeah hmm did meet her, redhead eh, hmm
She's Princesz.
oh and who is lindsay lohan, never met that char
Ah thanks for clearing that up and OMG Alkath is a ginger????
A ginger is a redhead. :P Ginger haired person, and such are commonly hated by brunettes. People with hair between ginger and brown generally dye towards the latter, or towards some other colour entirely. Blondes are not traditionally known to dislike gingers, but gingers on the other hand detest blondes for taking away the title of 'best in bed.' Gingers are known for fiery tempers, copious sexual appetites and an utter lack of body hair; and tend to overcompensate. Notable luminaries among today's ginger communities worldwide include:
John Arne Riise (Norway)- Shooting to kill on the sports field
Lindsay Lohan (Amerika)- Being too cute
Alkath Eowalas (Sweden)- Having more electronic STD's than a cabinet minister
heh... a ginger is a redhead kid. In particular, ones with the pale blotchy skin and freckles all over their face :(
wth is a ginger?
BTW Urban thanks for mentioning that 'add a comment' link
What?! BURN HIM!
Shows how much you know, noob. He's a ginger.
Alkath is wonderful. He's a bright eyed and blond haired little bundle of love.
Alkath is so damn lame. All in agreement, say aye?
Noticable, that's what.
What's the difference?
Why not Otorons of the World United?
OotWU - Orcorons of the World United.
The FRA and its 9 proxy guilds!
Ok, if only 10 guilds were to remain, which 10 would it be?!
PoT! Tharbad is useless anyways
Yeah, I don't read ALL the comments. :P
Hey, someone freaking tried to do that already and they got whoomped for it! You guys are a fickle mob
QB must be eliminated! They have no theme and do not contribute to the MUD at all!
Next guild to go bye bye. Discuss.
Oh shit! Pounder is right! We need to think of something that everyone has polarized opinions of to talk about and quick!
It's 10days I think..
Or it becomes April 06, and this thread's comment section closes automatically because it is a week old. :(
Damnit Urban I wanted to point that out but I got behind on the thread and it took me too long to read through the rest of comments :(
The fuck it will. I will visit this log comment thread every day for the rest of my life just to make sure it doesn't die. I'm pretty sure it will be a running conversation between Orcoron and myself at that point, which could get boring because Orcoron usually says what I want to say, but he's able to read the page more often since he works on a computer and by the time I check it he's already gone and stole my words. What a fucker.
Pounder i laughed so hard some wee came out...the towers ascii is hilarious....perhaps its late and this is only funny because i'm so tired, but right now...champagne comedy!
After a few more logs are posted, it will die out.
I realised that but was hoping noone would comment about my stupidity :(
Btw Alkath, you don't have to scroll down to post a comment, you can easily just click on 'Add a comment' which is situated right at the top instead of scrolling dumbass.
I like that Two Towers ascii.
Work on loading the comment section of this log first Orcoron! Then you can tackle the whole idea of setting up a mud. And what castamir says is very correct. Even with such said expertise, you would still need to know the particular details and oddities of setting up the actual towers environment. Not to mention, that copy is very old (before TNT days is what I have heard). There is so much more stuff that the ainur add on a day to day or at least month to month basis. This exact fact is why a split like before will never happen. Not to mention if Herkies made that split, the log on would be like
Welcome to Herkie MUD LOL GUDZ?
U NOE ENGLISHER DO DO NOT ENTER!
/\ /\
| | |
COM HALP US!
Wat Log name here:
Wat ur pass?:
ERROR no race wat u? Room broke go void
The void (exits are non)
Guest
Mykloid
Admin
SA
WTFHOWGETROOMWOKR?
This thing just crashed my IE. :/
Mandos chants: 70 comments to the end of the world.
If this gets to 500 the world will end.
Also change the logo to a naked pic of you, Ansaril.
What this logpage really need is the ability to open the 'new comment' window. (that is where you write) and still be able to scroll through comments at the same time so you can see what you actually comment on.
*that counted them. I suppose it was obvious but you are kinda daft, Orcie, so I figured I should OF explain it to you. 101
Nope, not one little bit....
I didn't count them. I coded a program that created them. That's not pathetic at all.
Not nearly as lame as counting them all!
that was your 61th comment on this log, you are just about as pathetic as that lame Australian dude Hirgail
I don't do my mum!! That's a horrible accusation! She's not my god damned mother she your mum and she just married my father, ok? I'm sick of playing this happy family shit with you Swedes!
And I think 'stfu' is against PG13 and should be Log'O'Mania-banned.
I don't attack you if you ask me to stay away. I think that is disrespectful, but most people enjoy a fight.
I played this game seriously Alkath. Fun? Fun?? This is important stuff you know.
Seriously though, mostly the thing that pisses me off about the way people roleplay on the MUD is that I can be golding at Loth and some VC or Galadhrim decides they want to 1: Put me in danger of PK by fighting me and 2: Disrupt what I was doing and think that they're absolved from me going 'Oh? Well fuck you. See if you'l do that next time if I kill you.'
If you want to do that fine, but get the conscent of the person you want to do it to. If they don't agree and you do it anyways, and they kill you, you don't have anything to complain about, so stfu.
And I know what you do, Orcoron. YOUR MOM. 101 owned
Once I managed to scroll down here I had forgotten what you said...
Uh, yeah, they want PvP without some lamer killing them. Is that a bad thing? I don't chat with npc's (well sometimes I do, but that's because I am crazy), but I can enjoy throwing some lame 'get out of here or I merc ya biatch' and attack and chase them away. I don't really care about the elven scout dying, I couldn't give a shit about him. I just care about having fun, and hopefully making the game more fun for whoever I attack. The elven scout is just there to give me a reason to engage in PvP. The difference with pking people is that when you pk someone, one of you are gonna be pissed :p
I play this game for fun, and I have more fun if the people I play it with have fun too.
You don't know what I do Alkath:P I don't PK to rp. I pk because it's fun and challenging. I have random killed before, out of extreme boredom but 90% of the time I'm being paid to do it. I don't RP...unless it's as a joke. I do have merciful fights, sure, but if I don't like the guy, I may forget to put merciful on. And when I'm talking about RP, I'm talking about this holier than thou art position that people take when they think that taking on this one dimensional half arsed character and defending a group of NPCs because it's what their guild does is being a deep and commited role player. I mean Carver is a nutjob, but at least he does it well. Most people just tack this RP tag onto this random shit they do to get into PvP but remove themselves from the negative consequences.
Scrolling down to post a comment on this log sucks :(
Orcoron, you pk to rp, some people do merciful fights to rp. You pk because you think a guy is lame and deserves it, some people do merciful fights with cool people since they respect him/her and think they can have fun together in a PvP mode.
I play both sides man, I can tell the difference. You only play one so you think the other is
Malorian, most people on this game have the most retarded idea about what playing a role is. For them it's shielding an NPC and attacking a PC while saying 'Thou shalt not attack this NPC unavenged!' and then when they get their ass kicked they lol and say 'Ha, good fight, thou art truly a mighty warrior.' and then they leave.
I mean, do what you like, just don't pretend like it's not the gayest fucking thing on the planet.
Esker, I never copy and paste or alias warnings. The main purpose of the bright caps is to get your attention in combat. Even though it is nearly impossible to RP now, since it seems almost no one does it anymore without intent of an ear :(
lololol GUD LOG!!!!11
....yeah, lets go for 1000.
Anyone that knows me knows that I'm about as computer literate as Herkimers are English literate:p But yeah I was just tossing up the thought of having a single player version of the game to mess about on for a week or two. See if I could solo shelob or something
Castamir, Orcoron was in no way trying to fork the mud or anything. What he did ask if it would be easy to launch the mud on his comp to play around alone on it, since the code is out anyway. He got his answer, I guess.
VC and KoDA? Really? I usually lumped Amruin into that category as well. I remember back in the good ole days of Allantir, I had been in the guild for about a month and there was a new guildmaster vote. I ran against Queen Newbie herself, Annadur, and I jumped off to a 5-1 lead. Then Mazza made some douchey lecture post on the guild board and the rest of the CoU newbie-alum voted for her. Anyways, the point I was getting at, when I was CoU I called for the absolute destruction of KoDA and was then kicked out of the guild shortly after. Man, just imagine if I had gotten my way. CoU starts strategically pking moral guilded players into inactivity. You know, I started typing all this up thinking it would sound a lot cooler, but now I'm so far into the comment that I feel like it'd be a waste if I just deleted it, so I'm just gonna go ahead and keep typing until I reach a point where I feel like stoppi... and there it is.
Esker, I think it was more about the way they communicated with their applicants and the way they behaved within their guild.
Orcoron: on a world-addressable machine it's actually a tiny bit easier to have a multiplayer server :p
Fortunately, having to ask such questions means there are no chances for you to get it going. The MUD server is not exactly the easiest piece of software to get running.
For example, a MySQL or Postgres server means just downloading a package and installing it, while installing Oracle for the first time takes a day of reading docs. Even a bare MudOS+TMI2 setup is much worse than Oracle, our customizations making it more complex.
So, bad luck with that.
And even that, having a MUD server running and having a successful MUD going are two completely different things. Do you have a team of ainur? A MUD needs coders (some of about kernel-level!), writers (ainur doing areas) and organizers. And people either have a MUD of their liking (T2T or competition) or have no time they may commit.
The previous fork came when T2T was in a dire crisis; the administration at that time stuck to their decisions nuking everyone who disagreed, even though clearly most of the playerbase was unhappy. Today, the problems are of much lesser weight (death costs, economy, weapon/armour balance, town penalties, remains of cookie-cutter guilds, ...).
Sorry, but except for town penalties, I'm on Aule's side. In other words: go to hell!
What was 'distinct' about their roleplay aside from the fact they spoke in ye olde english? They still pulled the same mundane 'shield npc, spam copy and paste RP warning' pallava which every other garden variety moral guild did.
Orcoron get on googletalk.
That's silly. Commenting for the sake of it just cheapens this already stupidly long thread. This thread is about something man, something real, something important....something...that happened to the Durms. I forget exactly what but it was a big deal.
401 just to spite you!
-hurb-
399
398
Nearly 400.
KoDA WERE doing that. They're no different from any other guild now Castamir. Also, answer my question about a single player version of the MUD please:P
I think it was the lack of active PKers in these guilds in my time. That changed for VC of course.
Hey, I am just stating a fact, I am not sure it's true now, but when I was always on the lookout for a target - a few years ago, VC and KODA were always the guys we all picked on:(
I am in no way saying any of these guilds suck or anything. It's just they were always targeted for some reason, and it seems as if they still are.
Orcoron, I see that you really miss the point.
Kozlodoev: KoDA has always been doing nothing but a style of RP quite distinct from all other guilds. VC, on the other thing, can be divided into three types of players:
1) those who sit in the GH and break the game for many others (Carver, ...)
2) those who sit in the GH and chat, providing fun on the comm and not being harmful
3) those who actually play -- on all levels, from those of a well-meaning newbie to that of Calenril.
I wouldn't call a guild which often does BD raids 'practice for young aspiring powerplayers'. They do have many non-pro players, but since when that's bad?
Grozin > Burgul
KoDA and VC were always the main target practice guilds for young aspiring powerplayers:(
Um, KoDA from levels 1-25 should always die. Now that the DA Town Comm is gone, what else are they good for?
Lobo. Herkimers are voting this 6, we'd best vote it 1.
Pablo used to kill my level 7 KoDA applicant for trying to protect the castle. He is an evil, evil man.
Oh Pablo I miss you so!
everyone looks sexy while riding a kangaroo
orcoron is also sexy.. for an australian..
if dalkar commented a 'lololol gud log' comment, we would reach 1000 and everyone would rate it a 6
That's only because I've commented twice here. If I hadn't, this log would be languishing in the waste of modern antiquity.
whoa, this just reached all time top 20
Yarr, I be disagreein with that last statement of yours.
Dicuss
A thread on the internet can be many things, but out of control?
I doubt it.
You know Otoron, in the years to come if new people still play this game then, people are going to read over this thread and think that we're one person with a serious case of multiple-personality disorder.
It's not even that long though!
the thread, apparently
What is?
This is out of control.
Being likeable goes a long, long way.
spam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ZlmDvsz_k and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c9ma1JgY5w.
Somebody paste the links to those Youtube videos. I've heard about them but have yet to see them.
In fact Natmir got a perma legend party because he cheated so damn much!
See, we all want to cheat and play multiple characters! So why be so pissed at some other guy when he does it? And does anyone mind that Natmir did it? Fuck no! Everyone loves Natmir. If anything people want him to come back and cheat more than he ever cheated before.
If you set up your client well enough playing 5 chars at once may not be all that hard. Now playing them well enough to not get caught is a different story
DANG!
i
fdl, Grozin took 9 seconds to type
Yeah Natmir was a true power swede. He was crazy. I remember when i was super newb, i was partying with Limdul at DWH camp, and he and his 4alt's entered, pked Limdul and i just stood there and he shruged and killed me to :) Then when i reported (first time i was pked i had no idea) he then threatend to level bash me and my entier clan that i was a member of at the time.
but at this rate, might as well talk about nonsensical shit and go for 1000!
it already is the most commented
commented?
most
the
this
make
?
help
i
can
Yeah, I lierally fell out of my chair IRL when he sent be tells from Bad, Orleg, Kedrimond, and the other 2 I'm forgetting at the same time.
Did he get nuked or what?
When was it ever ok for someone to play 5 characters at the same time? When mother fucking Natmir did it is when! That guy played 5 characters at the same time for months on end and wasn't even caught until he actually law reported himself thinking he would get a bunch of gold as a reward for the law report. Crazy? Crazy like a fox.
Man, Natmir was the shit.
We need some new controversy, like Aule logging on, and saying he never liked SoU much either and they better straighten up or something.
You are a man of little faith, Colven.
We aren't even to 400 yet :(
How do you expect this to get to 500?
Hi.
By: Orcoron
In death, I will be as a God to the emos.
Haha, I cracked up when I read that. Epic. As for the news clip, I can't believe some prick from St Ives stubbed his toe. Typical of them, the wankers. My best mate's from there, and he's a toe-stubbing wanker too.
Maybe. I'll let you know when I find out.
well, she's a contortionist and was trying to give herself oral or something, and fell out of the bed!
Anyway, Durms are boring. Boo hoo very sad and unfair. Let's move onto the real world issues.
If anyone can give me a reasonable explaination as to how this happened then you are a genius.
*It did not come out during the fall.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23478233-5001021,00.html
I think he meant suicide IRL:( Which, I am doing right now. These words are being typed in my own blood.
In death, I will be as a God to the emos.
HAHA HE CAN'T SUICIDE, HE'S HARDBANNED
ZING.
What a dumbass thief, sounds like if it was Kozlodoev you were talking about. And a dumbass communist party, send them to Siberia and have them work as slaves instead, and make some money of them (of course perhaps kill the women and the old from the family).
And yeah, what Koz said. Orcoron there's no need for you to interrupt us when are are having a secrious, constructive discussion. I urge you to consider suiciding as you are nothing but a dog in my eyes.
Im sorry Im sorry. Ok so, Alkath let's use an extreme and ridiculous analogy.
In Soviet Russia one man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. Communist Party takes starving family and executes them as well as the thief.
Is that the thiefs fault?!
Alkath, don't you hate it when some asshole jumps in with some random bullshit when people are having a serious discussion, like you and I?
This son of a bitch is going to 500! Why? Fuck you! That's why.
Now that my Dirty Secret is out, I have nothing to do but follow Scorpion into oblivion:(
Kozlodoev tells you: PLZ RMV THAT COMMENT I'LL DO ANYTHING FOR YOU
Wow Your pathetic Kozlodoev 1!!!
That's not what your mom told me last night.
Oh, and I won't tell anybody about that you still wet your bed either, don't worry.
WHO'S THE WANKER NOW?
Alkath, we were all posting just to make a new top commented thread, nobody really meant what they said. We made that record, so stop trying to act as if this was some serious discussion or something, wanker.
Don't respond to me after I've gone to bed lamer :(
Ok, here's my view on the punishment:
Nuking Delkin - finally, well deserved.
Nuking Mute - finally, well deserved.
Nuking Manni - He might never have cheated himself, but he for sure knew about it, and I don't accept any 'Durms just made the most out of the system they were presented with' bullshit. Since when is playing 5chars at the same time ok with the system? Since when is going around hardbans, botting and harassing people ok with the system? Manni knew of all of this, and chose to let it proceed since those two typists were helping Durms. As I stated earlier, he gambled, and lost.
About Durmanhoth as a guild being removed - I have a few friends in Durms and I saw their morale being twisted, Delkin and Mute's cheating affected them in a very bad way. I think that the guild Durmanhoth was removed for two reasons; For the members to get a chance to get a new start, and so that Delkin and Mute wouldn't feel like just making a new char on a proxy and keep playing the game. Perhaps without a home they won't bother.
I don't want to see myself as a hypocrite :) But that's not for me to decide! I stated earlier that I am sad that the non-cheating members were indirectly punished through this, but I think the ones to put the blame on are three nukees for doing the crime, not the admins for punishing.
To clear up all the confusion here, I am sexy.
I was under the impression that giving out QI was perfectly legal now.
No one has ever claimed the entire guild was cheating, Kilin. Look at all the logs, all the people who have downloaded Delkin's client, all the people who have seen the QI HOSTED BY DURMS... and so many people have see Durms MPing in so many ways it's not even amusing anymore.
Interesting, if you don't know what was going on, you'd think the entire guild was doing it... 85 people cheating? really?
Yep.
But you WERE making an accusation. You WERE making the assertion that most Durms were MPing.
That's what I was saying, that I was NOT making a case of MP simply because I, personally, do not have enough evidence.
Then you can make the case that Fyng's alt multiplayed with Foxxx and gave him MELS. You cannot make a broader case with one incident. If you could compile a list of cases then you could make a broader accusation that has some validity.
I DO think that the majority of Durms participated, in some form or another, in violating the MPing rules. However, you're right, I don't have any eyes-on evidence. Oh wait, yeah I do! I saw Fyng's alt give Foxxx MELS when Fyng was unsuspended in Durms. But that's the only thing I've seen personally.
It's not clever Malorian:P By saying that you're implying that there's an accusation that the majority of Durms were multiplaying.
'For the sake of debate, let's even say that the majority of Durms did not MP, _which is questionable._'
When you say for the sake of debate it's as though you're giving someone a position even though you submit that it is false. It's you're saying 'There is no debate, that positition is wrong. The majority of Durms were multiplaying. But just for the sake of debate let's ignore that and pretend it isn't true.'
Orcoron, try this one: www.bigsausagepizza.com
I still want to know if the MUD would be impossible to load and play on your computer or just impossible to set up on a server to allow multiple online people to play. And if it's the latter...hook a brother up someone?:P
I don't for a second believe they will Shabba. But God damnit I'm bored and this is one of like 3 websites I feel it's safe to visit at work. The other two are run by the company.
I just had an idea. Aule should give out copies of the mud as rewards in the pledge drive!
'For the sake of debate, let's even say that the majority of Durms did not MP, which is questionable.'
Orcoron, I said that let's take out the MP thing entirely.
I know you guys WANT the flaming but just give it up. As if they're going to reverse their decision after Mute gives out the system code, and Manni said all the shit he did. Oh.. Mordhred had the right idea.
Duncan never knows what he's going on about anyways.
Well, at least people are getting nuked for cheating these days. Back in Draugluin's day you'd just get nuked for being mildly offensive (and even that depended on what kind of thin-skinned pussy was online)and just plain funny.
Oh well, I broke the record, so I'm gonna sit this one out for a while.
-Bakal!
Alkath, you're a major proponent of 'If I fuck with you then don't take it out on my guildmates, take it out on me.' Right?
When you say cheaters. You mean Delkin and Mute, correct?
When you say PK Durms, do you mean Durms or Delkin and Mute?
Would you agree that if you mean the above then that would make you a hypocrite?
As an answer to Trempk about why not other people/guilds helped - I was waiting for this to happen, ainu to do something about the situation. I didn't think I should have to waste time maxing a new char/profchanging some alt just to pk Durms, since the cheaters really should be nuked.
Duncan what the fuck are you going on about? Just because I confer fault does not mean I confer intent.
Why?
Haha, pwned.
someone block bakal from commenting
Yeah, Orcoron. I told you, 'they' had been planning it since the creation of the MUD. Manwe is still around too! I'm sure he is not only responsible for the Durmanhoth monster but designed it. Or maybe you, Orcoron are behind all this!
Or on the other hand, someone had to deal with what Draugluin left behind and took the responsibility to make the MUD a better place?
305 makes it the most commented log ever! Also fuck you Bakal, if you got this before me!
WINNAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
304 OH SHIT!
303!!!!
OMGOMGOMGOMG 302.
301 FTW!!!!!!11111
You people should make a note of this. Trempk, Orcoron, and Bakal are all on the same page. History has been made.
They were all Admins at the time. They may have been less active though. Aule and Tulkas only really became highly involved in the day to day running of the MUD after the TNT split. But they were still members of the Council and for any major change to be implimented required them to vote on it.
I mean, none of the administrators nowadays were admins in Draugluin times. (or I'm wrong?) Can't really blame them for cleaning up the house from monsters. You are right though, the durms were the bad consequences of Draugluin's policy.
I'm sorry Duncan, could you show me where I pointed at Aule as specifically creating these things? Could you please explain why the specific Administrators involved has any impact on the rights or wrongs of disbanding the guild as a response to a situation that they created? I'm pretty sure they all vote on these things.
[new] Date: 03. Apr, 2008, 1:49:56 By: Orcoron
'They created the monster and then blamed it when it acted like a monster. They then tried to look like some kind of heroes when they killed the monster that they created.'
Yeah, Orcoron. You know, this evil Aule, he created the BPs and made Draugluin do all these things he did! He must've been plotting it since the very creation of the MUD!
Also for those of you saying to get a copy of the MUD...Castamir you say it would be very hard to get up and running. Is that just for online play? Would it be hard to get to run just on your own computer for your own fun? I might get a kick out of that for a week or two:P
No I'm not British. Again Malorian you're just asserting that all of these things are true. You're asserting that the majority of Durms multiplayed. Do you KNOW that they did? If you know then how do you know?
Nyar har har! ;)
I'm sure your boss would like to know that, Malorian!
We are bored at work, Mordhred, and have nothing better to do!
Let's say then, which is true, that the majority of Durms did not cheat. For the sake of debate, let's even say that the majority of Durms did not MP, which is questionable. Still, they intentionally give out QI and alt lists, have a complete and utter lack of RP (most members are unable to RP even if they tried. I wonder how they ended up in Durms!), and have access to a client with botting and IP-hiding capabilities. Oh, and they get on everyone's nerves: they lie concerning certain members' crimes, a few (ironically not the cheaters in most cases) talk shit, ETC!!!
By the way, Orcoron, are you British?
I can't believe you guys are still discussing about this. Can't you realize yet that your opinions don't matter a single bit? Just like mine doesn't. It's a decision made by the Powers, it's their game, and to reach such decision they have access to information no one else has, or will ever have.
If you don't like it, learn to live with it. If you can't live with it, go away, go play another game, go open your own MUD, go run a copy of T2T, go do whatever the hell you want to. I promise you no one will care. And I promise you that you won't be missed.
Just end the discussion already. What's done is done.
Again Malorian, you can't do that. You can't say Durms cheated. Delkin cheated (allegedly), Mute cheated (allegedly)and possibly a few others did.
If two African guys hold up a petrol station then you can say that 'Those two guys are criminals' and that would be true.
You can't say that 'Africans are criminals' because it implies that all Africans are criminals, which is untrue.
It's different; we can choose to make what we want out of what we see. I see Valinor getting frustrated with Durms and dissolving the guild. I see Durms rarely RPing, giving out QI (once SOME female Durm's alt gave out a QI site from a request on the newbicomm), and MPing. And then there are some who bot, among other things. I don't want to get into specifics ATM; but to answer your question yes, I think Valinor was a little hard on them. The fact remains that Durms cheated intentionally and Valinor making balance mistakes was just that: mistakes.
Too hard on them? Gee..no? Don't you think they're being a little too hard on the Durms?
Also nothing about the rule changes was about OUR judgement. It was all about Valinors judging when and if they would enforcing their unclear and occasionaly contradictory rules.
I wrote that comment write after Trempk's comment....
For the most part I agree with Orcoron. Don't you think you're being a little too hard on Valinor? After all, it's not like what they did was intentional, unlike JHerks/Durms actions. But it is true that the system should now be fixed so that the Durms, as of a few days ago, do not return.
That's a ridiculous analogy Hurin. If the TSA changed its rules to allow people to carry metal objects onto planes those rules would quite obviously exclude weapons.
It wouldn't be vague at all. It would be a clear cut and easy to follow rule and it wouldn't be enforced randomly and with varying severity.
What Durmhanoth did, based on talking to people in Valinor and outside, is carrying different pieces of metal inside the aeroplane and assembling a bazooka inside.
Suppose the TSA changes its rules, and they stop being arrogant douchebags. Suppose they allow you to use your judgement to carry metallic objects on board an airplane. Would you carry a gun? Would you whine if they arrested and jailed you, if you were found with a gun on board?
'legend gm' or something and view all the guilds.
No on except for the Megs had any good reason to wage war other than dislike of Durms. Botting and MPing and such doesn't really hurt others, and I don't think anyone else golds on SG gridmons. And then of course there's the fact that Durms would win the war, even against two guilds, eventually, without the disbandment; even if they didn't win, they definitely wouldn't lose anytime soon, and the guild joining in would suffer very much. You see, Trempk, Durms didn't get out of hands for others. They didn't really effect your average MUDer that much. Honestly, unfair though it might be, people (me included) hate Durms because they exist. For obvious reasons that I'm not going to bother restating here. And that is a good excuse to have them disbanded, but not to wage war with them, because disbanding them hurts no one else.
And though I might be wrong, I think the MUD will be better off for it. C-ya Manni, I liked you (off the log-page threads) ;)
Trempk raises an interesting point. It's easy to look at this as Durmanhoth abusing the system, but what about that system?
Let's look at the changes to the system in the past few years.
1: The multiplaying rules were altered - Altered in a fairly vague way. Things most people previously considered multiplaying were now not multiplaying unless this or that circumstance applied. People who had grown up with the old rule set found this a bit confusing. I'd even had Melkor come down and explain that they were scrapping it because multiplaying was just something they'd pin on people to nuke them when they wanted to get rid of them for something else. As multiplaying was something that under the old rules most people on them mud were guilty of anyway.
2: The botting rules were changed in a vague way. Botting used to be against the rules. No exceptions. Now botting was only against the rules if you weren't at the computer when running your bot. Or was it? I think some people were nuked or warned for botting when they were at the computer.
3: Guild theme. Since dev 22 guilds weren't very special anymore. They were just clans with a building other people couldn't enter. The Admins created the framework that allowed a guild like Durmanhoth to exist in the way it existed. They also didn't seem to object to it for a long time.
4: Battlepoints. Valinor instituted a system that led to the kind of mentality and playstyle that people didn't like in Durmanhoth. It took a fracture in the community for them to reverse this system.
5: Law reports and the cost of death. The combination of the Stasi-eque law reporting system and the low cost of death meant that any large conflict between players was impossible to solve via in-game mechanics and if you wanted to damage your enemy you had to try to fuck them with Valinor. How much of what Durms were charged with was based on law reports? How many of those law reports were legitimate? How much of Valinors attitude towards Durms was based on them receiving a whole heap of law reports?
Sure it's easy just to wipe out the Durms and make them the scapegoat for Valinors fuck ups. And hey, they don't HAVE to do things the hard way if they don't want to. But for the rest of you to jump onto their bullshit wagon is pretty sad.
They created the monster and then blamed it when it acted like a monster. They then tried to look like some kind of heroes when they killed the monster that they created.
People want Manni to take some responsibility? As I see it, Durms just made the most out of the system they were presented with. Did I like it? No. Do I think the whole guild should have been wiped because a few members abused a stupid system? No.
Sorry for the misquote, Trempk, but there is no way in hell that everybody outside his guild knew about all this bullshit and he didn't. No matter how much he tries to portray himself as the helpless victim that is so very surprised by what happened, nobody with a clue is buying it.
Its not about warring them to death, its about warring them to inactivity and warring them to make a point. If they were ruining the mud like you're all saying, then you should have been warring them yourselves. Either you're exaggerating the situation in that they weren't ruining the game, or everyone that wasn't warring them is a coward within the game. And now you're glad because valinor fought your battle for you like mommy.
Nope, not true. You clearly have no idea about the present state of the MUD. Deaths hurt so little that I think its basically impossible to war a guild to death. Why do you think there were 25 guilds or whatever?
Please, if everyone banded together and fought them like the other times that guild got out of hand, it would have been solved quickly. They would have become inactive with everyone playing targeting them. The newbies would have left the guild and they would have been crushed, same as before.
Here's Manni's quote, Lucky:
'Anyway, when the guildhall was suspended, I told everyone to **stop** doing stuff that would get law reports called on them.'
So if you're going to start misquoting people and putting words in their mouths, why don't you stay out of the fucking discussion because you're just wasting people's time.
Erm, Trempk, Durms were mobilized more than any guild has ever been. Put that in alignment with fines, and the newbies in all guilds, and you'll see why no other guild warred them.
Damn, I'm agreeing with Orcoron here. You all are acting like such hypocrites here, its completely disgusting. Like I mentioned earlier, most all of you gave a big shit when Tulkas was telling Skyman to play like he wanted him to play or else, but now that its someone thats actually your enemy in the game, its a different story.
Some people actually did care when Azer did his bullshit war/extortion with quickblades, but if it happened last week, none of you would give a shit because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
How much of a problem were Durmanhoth? I only saw one guild warring them; where were the rest? If it was as bad as you all say it was and they were doing such damage to the game, then every guild should have been fighting them, period.
Again, I am -very- out of the loop with the MUD as a whole.
But from what I heard, a freely available to download client that allows hard-banned players to circumvent hard-bans is bad news. Couple that with said players known disregard for rules, hosting of QI websites, guidelines for newbie killing, and all that can only be a recipe for disaster.
Manni already admitted complicity by saying he asked his members to slow down on their cheating so that they don't get into more trouble. That alone is obvious admission to knowingly advocating what your guild members did. Good riddance.
Also Hurin - Raqtor's client is where a lot of people got their Dells Farm bot from. A fair few people have been nuked for that bot. So what makes people having Delkin's client with its bots and its proxys so much worse?
Christ, you want a proxy IP? Google it and it'll take like half an hour to get up and running.
I heard that it could be downloaded from the Durmanhoth web-site. But I don't actually know anything, just repeating what I read/heard.
Really? And..uh..where could this be downloaded from?
I think the problem is Delkin's client had proxies to circumvent hardban (or so I hear).
In the land of t2t double standards are king!
Also! Half of the people expressing some kind of outrage of offence here that Durms were trying to take over and destroy QB are the same guys that were laughing their asses off when I was trying to get Haylie to give me the gmship so I could get them into a war with as many guilds as possible then disband the fucking thing.
Look - I'm pretty fucking sure Mute and Delkin botted and multiplayed. I couldn't say how much. I KNOW (because I saw it for myself) that Delkin ran a QI site and I know there was a t2t wiki hosted by Durms and for Durms with a bunch of fairly harmless but kinda offensive shit on it (the alt-info thing). But that's all I KNOW.
Now everyone here says 'We all know what Durms were doing.'
How many of you really know it? I mean how much of what you're saying is based on conjecture and things you heard from others? How much of what you say you know do you actually have evidence for? How much of it is more what you THINK or SUSPECT they did?
I sure as hell don't know that Smoky ever botted or multiplayed or passed gear or transferred gold. I don't know that Eigen ever did. I don't know that Omit ever did. I don't know that Panayoti ever did. I don't even suspect that any other member outside of Mute, Delkin, Grakas, Kvedulf and Murray did anything even resembling cheating.
They used or had Delkin's client? So fucking what? How many people have Raqtor's client? When's the last time you heard someone complain about that?
No kidding. And yet there is a Beorning involved in the whole thing!
This is climbing up on the most commented list very quickly.
I had it from Mute himself that your goal for your wikisite was to have complete QI accessible to all members. So no assumptions on my part. Releasing the code was just the logical conclusion on that path.
How is it that everyone but Manni knew of the client transfers and mplaying going on in Durmanhoth? How is it that someone with his head lodged as firmly up his as myself heard of these things time and time again, but somehow Manni didn't.
Seriously, take some damned responsibility. We all know you're not stupid, and we all know you're not that oblivious. So either come out and admit you knew and didn't care, or I guess admit you're a fucking idiot. I know which of the two I'll believe (that's a backhanded compliment, I guess).
There you have it: It's habitual. And maybe even subconscious.
I'm not lying, I'm just telling my side of the story. You're the ones speculating and coming to the worst possible conclusions about everyone.
Saif's account was removed once word got out about the alt lists actually. And BkD (under Azer's despicable leadership) tried to harass QB by declaring war, not by infiltrating it with alts and abusing bugs to stay in control. I beg to differ.
I wish we could have more honesty now that such things don't matter, but I suppose it becomes habitual. Manni, I suggest, while writing your next comment, stop in the middle, and think 'Am I lying, bending facts, or obscuring truth in any way?' You do it in pretty much every single time you open your mouth, although more covertly than your guildmates did. This is how Durmanhoth got away with many forms of cheating. It is also how Durmanhoth became universally hated. You either thought (and still think) everyone else was stupid, or have somehow managed to brainwash yourself.
If you are going to respond to this with the usual stuff, don't bother. Pretty much everyone knows what you'd respond with.
Couldn't have said it better Dalkar. Besides Manni, didn't you beat the game? Most people put it behind them after they do that.
You know, the t2tmud.org wiki doesn't contain alt lists and guilds members lists.
I'm not going to say that I'm not biased in this situation, I am. But having been a GM on a couple of occasions myself, I would like to put a couple of pennies into this vault.
I don't know Manni. Doubt I ever spoke to him, yet I'll take a half-step forward and judge him because, as a GM, your actions are that of the guild. And the guild's actions are that of yours. I grew up under Armand's GMship, and he was a like him/hate him kinda guy. Led our tiny little guild through the thin and into the thick, through three wars, two of which were against Durms, the last almost destroyed them. On top of all that, he remains the best desc-writer I have yet seen on the mud. My point here is that his actions were AA - AA was him, at the time. You just can't have your people doing things and not do a thing about it, much less profess ignorance. You can't.
The only legacy I left as a GM was probably applicants... I don't think I let in more than one or two, out of many. And the worst part was that, near the end of my tenure, I got to the stage where I had to consider OOC factors into selection - rather than just the IC considerations previous. One of the Durm kids applied, I remember, and he was great. Polite guy, promising as all hell, but I couldn't let a Durm alt in. That's the state to which things had gotten with the Durms, and this was last year.
What does that tell you, if nobody's willing to accept alts of your members? There's obviously something goes wrong. The dead wood like Serex and Jian... guildban, MP, anyone? And Foxxx... they should have gone, long ago. Mute, Delkin, Putin... everyone knew who and what they were a long time ago. And you disrespect your fellow mudders if you say that it isn't the truth. The admin just couldn't do a thing about it, I suppose, for want of solid proof. Proxies are pretty cool, aren't they?
You'd have earnt a lot of respect, and perhaps regained the confidence if you'd made those calls, tough as they may have been, a long time ago. The Captain's gotta go down with his ship, though, because there's no way in hell he didn't know what his crew was doing. The Durmanhoth became the symbol of the mud for cheating and general, to use that great new word, asshattery. That's why it had to go. At least think about your newbie guildmates who you care so much about. Let them make new characters, and keep their Durm pasts in the closet. They can start afresh, and if they're smart enough, smooth things over with time. And I know I'd love that, and so will a lot of people here.
As for the real villains behind this, the cheaters, the liars and the thieves - G'bye for now, Mute, Daywalker and Delkin. We'll see you back in a couple of weeks on those proxies, eh? As for you, Manni... ta. Hard it turns out this way, but just you can make murder look good, doesn't mean it isn't murder. See ya soon.
Don't forget BkD waging a war against QBs in the beginning of their guild trying to get them to shut down... And all the harassing comments people have said about them, and that they shouldn't be here...
The actions of a few people that happened to have durmanhoth alts was not the actions of durmanhoth.
But go ahead and believe what you want to believe
Koz, I understand your point and I think it's a valid one, but you're making some assumptions about what our goals were. We had a decent wiki going on our quest website (can't link now for obvious reasons). Most of that wiki was created by a combination of Rau, Idell, Anvik, Eigen, and Mute. I don't think Mute contributed notably more there than others did. We encouraged members to add to the wiki and I myself used it a lot. I still go there to remember commands for a few quests. I don't think it ruins the magic for anyone to have that option of quest info available to them. Other people got Saif's password to the site and began using it for their own good... Mute didn't delete Saif's account, though. In fact, he gave Tulkas an account and was considering opening it up to everyone but I think got decided not to because of the time commitment involved (it would be like running the log page). So really, the wiki was just developed in response to the change in QI rules more than a year ago and was similar to information on the t2tmud.org wiki. If people didn't want to use it, they certainly didn't have to... But it helped a few people find gear that they otherwise wouldn't have had access to. So I think the wiki was a success.
Regarding further help, if there were client transfers and giving 'newbies' complete clients, I didn't know about it and I wouldn't have supported it. I know we didn't give that stuff to Rauu and Anvik and Eigen and Panayoti and Dvalin... They worked hard to create that stuff by themselves (with our help when needed) and have come up to speed with older more experienced surprisingly quickly.
On releasing the MUD code, I entirely disagree with Mute's decision to host it. But the files are on his computer, not mine. Mute and I both feel insulted and disrespected by the way the situation was handled by Valinor. A lot of immortals have had access to this code and haven't passed it around based on a mutual respect that Mute feels was breached by Valinor in this situation. Personally I don't feel that it warrants releasing the code, but if Mute feels that it does, I'm definitely not going to judge him on that because Valinor tore up a pretty good chunk of our time and effort.
So when Durms beat he mud it's all cool, and when Valinor beats the Durms it isn't? Kinda conflicting and double standard to me.
Bakal makes some interesting points...
Manni, I oppose the disbandment, but I do believe Durms were ruining the MUD for a lot of people. The code release is just one step further along the path that your guild had set as a goal for this MUD, and surely you don't believe the code release is good for the MUD as a whole? Mute told me himself that it was his aim to have complete QI availaible for every member of Durms. Coupled with your 'aggressive recruiting' that means, essentially for every newbie that wishes in Arda. Your official guild policy was harming the spirit of the MUD, and for that you are fully responsible, there's no 'Valinor has to take care of it' or 'I can't control it because I can't monitor alts and cheating'.
It was all withing the rules, sure, and I think the ainur are at fault for not coming up with some policy which would limit this, but that really doesn't matter to me. You were harming the MUD every day you logged on as Durm GM and you bear full responsibility for it. I am sad you didn't see it then, and I am sad you don't see it now, you were too busy beating the MUD then, and too busy being the martyr now.
You said once that all you could ask for in members is loyalty. For creating a pwerful army yes, that is the only thing that matters. And you succeeded in that. But for creating an organization that contributes to the magic of T2T you have to ask for a lot more. You alienated the whole MUD outside Durms and made yourself hated. That is not a coincidence. Neither does the reason 'They hate us cause we are stronger' account for it.
But I think this comment will just fuse itself with all the 'HAHA DURMS SUCK SERVES YOU FUCKERS RIGHT' comments in your minds, and you'll just lump me along with the mindless haters who only hate you cause your guild was better at all aspects and because you had more fun than them. Too bad.
Was anyone really all that distraught about Durms destroying Quickblades? I mean, come on, the guild name was Quickblades. Who the fuck wouldn't want that silly ass guild off the mud? Quickblades sounds like the type of guild me and my friends would make just for the fuck of it because we could.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with what the Durms were doing. If they were cheating and getting away with it, kudos to them. Manni isn't that far off base when he says Durms 'beat' the mud. It's a pretty rare thing when one guild has such a stranglehold on the entire community that Stalinor feels the need to just fucking delete the entire thing. It's not like this is the first time bug abusing/cheating was used in a war. It's just that this is the first time one side was so much fucking better at it than the other side.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like everyone here will change their philosphy about the game on a fucking whim based entirely upon who opposes their opinion. Fuck, Trempk even made a few comments earlier on in this thread that I agreed with 100%, and I generally consider Trempk to be King Douchebag reigning over Doucheland, but what he said rang true.
I was even considering entering the rap battle, but now the spirit of the mud, whatever the fuck that is, doesn't sit right with me.
Whatevs, you're all bitches.
Meh. We were kind of tied up in a war so we didn't have time to fix the upholstery. Like how those halls of history were taking months to get put in because they were sidetracked for GMedit requests for livery items and boots.
Anyway, it's all done now and I apologize if anyone in Durm ruined the spirit of the MUD for anyone.
Manni, the rank could've been Flame of Numenor instead of Cool Guy, right? I was expecting to see a 'gridmon_terror_of_SG' rank next. As far as Azhrarn is concerned, don't you guys have at least a little shame for harassing him into getting himself in trouble N times? That's just ugly.
Duncan, Duncan, Duncan...
You know as well as I do that you can give people access to a ranks system. In our system, I delegated ranksys access to platoon leaders, other guild leadership, and anyone else who would take it. When your guild has 45 'active' people and 80 total members, there's a lot of delegating that goes on. I checked the rank system from time to time, but for the most part, I let platoon leaders do what they wanted. The 'Cool Guy' thing was mostly to rib Valinor when Mute had an immortal alt. The rules stated that mortal alts of immortals couldn't be AGMs... That rule has since been changed, but at the time we thought it was a pretty goofy rule... So Mute changed his title from 'AGM' to 'Cool Guy'.
As far as letting Jerlyn in after the QB thing... That wasn't anything out of the ordinary. it wasn't avoiding any rules or letting her off easy. Making a new character is a punishment. If the ainur didnt want her in any guild on any character, they would have banned Jerlyn from guilds, too. But that wasn't the punishment they levied. The punishment was only on whoever her QB char was. It's not like Skyman wasn't let into BkD immediately after Flare was nuked for botting, or Brac wasn't let into TH and Daeman into BkD after the Azhrarn nuke for harassment. So let me give you a hand stepping down from your facade of a moral high ground so you can stop PKing ex-Durms on your alt.
Like, inviting durm alts to their GH so OOC the invited kids don't really know that's wrong? Or not stopping Mute from doing it? It's not that hard to say 'Don't quest with alts' you know. That's just one example. He knew very well what was going on in his guild and did everything to ensure that his members could 'have fun' and go on cheating and destroying RP. Look at their ranks system - I don't think Mute or Delkin changed it to 'domecheckas' and 'cool guys', did they? Now this is just another example. There are MANY examples. Why should Valinor list everything for you? I personally don't feel like wasting time to list what I know. Remove a whole guild just because some of its members cheated? No, this is not the case. It wasn't like 3 or 4 or 5 durms cheating. It was Durmanhoth promoting cheating and teaching players to cheat. I don't know all of the details either, I don't have access to law reports. But I do know that there was a law issue with Durmanhoth like every week and every week Manni and his high ranked members behaved as if this happened for the first time. At some point Mute even denied he had been suspended for bug abuse. Manni knew about and covered all the cheating. That alone isn't everything. Simply said, Manni created an environment for his guildmembers to cheat and destroy RP. And really, saying 'I didn't know what I was doing.' coming from Manni..?
As far as Manni cheating/clienting/botting or even going along with those things is, I can only share my side of the time I spent working with Manni.
After I immorted and passed my newbie quest, I moved into the Grond team, with Manni as my overlord. Tarzhayan was just being finished and we were moving into creating things for the mid-high level ER characters. The idea was to make camps across the grid which would not have many quests per-se but would contain mobs which had gold/items worth gold etc for high level characters to gold in. Manni knew about my client and the reasons my newbie quest contained a bit of randomness (to make clients harder to automate it). I had the idea of making these camps random, they would spawn in random places on the grid, and occasionally pack up and move camp. Once inside the camp would be randomly generated (from a set list of rooms, connected via semi random exit directions. We even went as far as coming up with algorithms to generate the camps. Some of the higher ainur got interested (maybe Castamir and Ghorin, it was so long ago I can barely remember) and even wrote some prototype code which would generate random camps. It was also around this time I started to get a bit inactive and eventually was demorted due to this. All that remains of the idea we had to create places where people who don't bot/client could gold on an almost even playing field is part of the level 15 ER quest.
Thats how, at least a few years ago, Manni felt about clients (and it seemed a lot of the Ainur did as well), whilst they aren't wrong, or bad, we'd like to find ways to even the playing field a bit.
There are a few people I dislike due to what 'I' would class as crimes against the spirit of the mud, I even agree that some of the Durmanhoth should have been nuked a while ago. Like the others however, I haven't seen any evidence of Manni taking part of, or even condoning this. He played a very good politician, but since when is that a crime?
Anyways Manni, it takes something like an unjust nuke to drag you away from the game, enjoy real life for a bit :). Was good working alongside you.
harassing QB was against the spirit of the mud, yuo got you gh suspended for that
Well, if bashing Herk kids, harassing quick blades, making fun of newbies is the 'spirit of the mud' its not a good spirit...
Nothing like an unprecedented punishment for crimes that have been in place for years, eh? Disbanding the entire guild? Really? That's pretty fucked up. Spirit of the mud? Did you just make that term up? I'm fairly certain not a single thing is going to change.
Everyone, durms bkd and impartials, should put the blame on herkies, for they were the cause of all of this.
Daywalker! What in the world! Where have you been.. :D
^ (OOC) Otoron: BAKLEN IS BACK
-I know this is a late comment but lawl...
I believe hard banning Manni was too much.. He didnt do anything that deserved it imo.. Strongest reason prolly would be allowing this to happen ? I dont think he allowed this to happen , it was more like he could not control it.
But what would you expect a leader do? I think he has done what he thought was right and good for his guild.. He warned his members and told them to stop, but then again, that is way out of his control..
People play this game, no matter what you'll do, they will always play it as they want to play it..
Now put yourself on his shoes, I seriously doubt you would kick or boot off the people who helped your guild a lot and the one's most active right? I mean come on..
It was much bigger than a guild war man. You knew this Haarni!:)
I guess BKD won the war then guys? They were at war until one guild died right? KHAZAD STRONG!
And I'm gone only because of trying to actually do some RL work done.
The fork was done because many felt the MUD is doomed into a shithole. It was a desperate attempt to stir things. While there could be better solutions, it kind of worked.
Right now there are some problems with transparency; and certain changes could be really rethought (town penalties, eq balance, gold economy, mild death, alignment system), yet they are details. There's nothing on the MUD-breaking scale of racewar and battlepoints.
The thing is Mirnac, most of the players (and some admins/ainur) that left for TNT are staying in the original towers this time as the situation is much different. You won't find the same place as TNT ever. :P
Man, I just can't wait to play DAYWALKERMUD. Yeah, that'd be a hoot.
Ow crap. If what you say about Mute is true, I see it is really good riddance. Yet, I'm not going to change my opinion about Manni until I hear anything about a single real crime he committed.
However, the chances of running a copy of our MUD without tons of technical knowledge, both deep knowledge of coding in general and of LPC, is straight out impossible. The driver isn't exactly something that works straight out of the box.
Well if there will be a new mud im there. I loved TNT. It was fun again.
Yeah I agree with Shabba, Please start up your own mud! We can rebuild with real newbies and with a positive foundation. I dare you to show us up, please don't, I swear!
Uhm, there have copies been going around for a while now. I think most influencial players will have been offered one at some point, or could have procured one had they so wished.
It'll be pretty sweet if they get that other MUD up. All the good kids will be left on this one :)
Mute and Jaime kept comming links to download it, Mirnac. Too bad, this place is too forgiving and probably they will all be back within a year.
Haha:) I already got it :)))
When you run the new one? You really think you will get a copy? I mean everyone knows who have the copy so i doubt he will do that one more time. I hope he will :) But i doubt it.
So many comments. You all idiots have no idea what Durms was. You never went inside the guild, you can't judge a guild without being a part of it.
It had more 'newbies' or 'new players' than many other guilds that are still around.
And the way you are going this mud will be gone within a year.
Keep on disbanding active guilds and keep the old guilds that have zero activity.
This is the way to go down. And as soon as I run the new mud, we will see how many people you will have left.
I have seen stupid administrators, but have not seen as stupid as T2T ones.
Well, I guess you have to put it into perspective.. If I was in there I'd probably suicide because of all the lame gangster shit and the SKR-HUB, domecheckin, aol speak, and whatnot. Your members might have had fun in there, but everyone else has been happy in their respective guilds
Most powerful? Probably, because of sheer numbers. Most fun? Very doubtful.
Oh Otoron, I will miss your comments.
Shabba, if you look at both those posts.. What I was saying is that our philosophy of acceptance is what enabled us to become Arda's most powerful and most fun guild. Anyone who wanted to hop aboard the bandwagon was welcome to at any point.
Mute, anyone who wanted a copy of it has had one for years.
It's not like you're giving us some giant revelation, other than your asshattery.
But he's right, Shabba. You see its not elitism if you're right. Only if you're wrong. Sheesh Shabba, get smart or something
'There's no reason for anyone to get a superiority or elitism complex.'
Dude.. you just proclaimed that you and your guild are better than the MUD and you beat the game :P
Hey everyone, look on the bright side... Now you all get to look at the mud code!
Its pretty much gotten to the point where its pointless to argue with Manni, he is too blinded by what he thinks is a good vision of Arda to see what was really going on.
My only regret Manni, is that I never got your ear! :p
I completely agree with Balzamon here. That's what Mute and I aimed for with our guild. The goal was to give everyone the benefit of the doubt from day 1, no matter what their skill level was. Mute was a hell of a recruiter (maybe a touch too good in the end) and we had a pretty good group of people who were able to teach quests to newbies. As far as a map, only 5 people have it and each of them has played for over 8 years. What Delkin did with his client was similar -- it was only given to people who knew the game to compare settings.
So with our recruiting efforts, putting all newer and low level players on equal fotting respect-wise, we were able to rack up applicant lists four times the length of other guilds, while keeping a swift application process. As soon as I decided an applicant had potential, they were in at that moment, completely accepted. There was no need for them to 'pay dues' with donations, limited access to information, or any feeling of inferiority at any point as an applicant or member.
Shit, we're all grown people playing a MUD. There's no reason for anyone to get a superiority or elitism complex. That's the foundation on which we laid our guild. And it worked. And it can work for any guild in Arda, no matter the state in which it is in right now. If people can take that lesson away from my 16 months as GM, I think our downfall will have accomplished a lot.
God Manni, give up the fucking ghost. Your lawyerly tactics (not strategery, that's never been in evidence) would make sense if there was any semblance of 'law' here. There isn't.
You were a leader, and your big reform was, 'I told everyone to stop doing stuff that would get law reports.' I mean, you didn't actually _remove_ the people who were doing this and garnering all the law reports. You told them 'keep it on DL until it blows over.'
The fact that in your guild, after having your guildhall removed, you had to convince people to stop mplaying, sharing eq with their alts, and partying with the alts of guild members demonstrates to me quite clearly that you at worst encouraged and at best knowingly let a culture of blatant cheating develop in your guild. And you didn't even excise those responsible for getting it removed.
You and the rest of the leadership of the guild need to take some responsibility. Be a mensch. I was pretty sympathetic to your plight in this until I heard the asinine continuation of your dissembling, and the complete and utter lack of cognizance that you may in fact have had a hand to play in all this.
Your and Mute's stance, coupled with listening to ex-Durms describe the echo chamber they lived in until two days ago, only reaffirms that this was a good decision in my eyes.
Why are you still here anyways, you beat the game, remember?
Case closed. No parole, no revision, no appeal.
Funny, it's all done and you still don't own up to what you did. Justifies the nuke, if anything.
Sure Manni, whatever you say! We know you'd never tell a lie or try to twist things around too look good for you... oh wait
It was effort to cover the suspicion of cheating. In order for it to be covering cheating, there would have to be cheating that occurred. Nobody's been able to actually shed light on what cheating occurred.
Yeah, Manni, all the effort to cover the cheating and they aren't even trying to justify their reasons as good as you did:(
Skyman, I think most guilds can take a positive lesson from this most recent incarnation of durms. And that is the exceptance of newbies. As long as guilds take more of a guidance role rather then 'here take my client, mapper, and all this qi!'. I think the over all attitude of most current guilds is to except a polished player that has already learned most of the mud. The newbie friendliness of durmanhoth if promoted on a wide scale on this mud could actually improve and increase our current playerbase. Osse has put in place some good rules for newbie helpers, guilds should read this help file and do the same with their newbies.
Smoky, a very few people were in favour of the Holocaust. Hitler and his crew. Most Germans were/are against it, Most of Europe was/is against it and most of the world was/is against it.
I don't know where you got your history lessons. When people voted for Hitler they didn't know he was planning this, and when he was in power they couldn't stop him. Oh, some tried, but they failed. (Ask Tom Cruise in Valkyrie).
And about Jesus....people at that time maybe thought is was better. He died for our sins, right? Quite noble, imo.
I mean.. I got nuked and hard banned. It's not really clear why the guild was dissolved, other than popular opinion/suspicion. It's clear that the reason we were nuked and hard banned is because Valinor didn't want to have to deal with justifying it.
Oh.. and yes the vast majority of the MUD would be in favor of this, no doubt about it whatsoever. In fact, most of that majority comes from people who DONT talk on the comm. Also, it would be honor to be credited for those youtube videos :P
Wow Smoky, are you seriously trying to compare this to the holocaust? What makes you think 80-90% of the world was in favor of it? Hitler was what, 0.000000000000000000001% of the population or some shit? I bet a lot of the Germans following his command didn't even hate the jews, he was just so charismatic that everyone followed him.
I think another solution attempt could have been to nuke the cheaters, guildban the rest of the leadership who tolerated and harbored them, and see if the rest of Durmanhoth can reform. But I think it wouldn't take long before they got their alts in (as past examples show) and would only be a waste of time.
And well, considering how good the videos were, if they were from me, I wouldn't be posting them anonymously. I'd be getting a ton of positive comments in exchange of pissing off some people who already hate me.
My bigger brother has a strong point there, that the mud is about emotions. That is what I meant when I said that Durmanhoth has been an example of activity and fun. And that's partly why I wouldn't have voted for their dissolution if I was asked to do so.
The Youtube videos were not from me - I am not good with animation at all. I was told the second video via tells from a newbie character named Just, and I proceeded to tell it to a few people who spread it. I guess that's why you think it was me.
I have no reason to lie really, considering I didn't shy away from posting your forum posts on comments here and exposing myself in the process. Believe what you want, I don't really care.
Which brings me to my next point, I wish Tulkas was not as idealistic - Sure, it is not nice to nuke people without 100% evidence, even if it is obvious that they're cheating. However, once the initial lenience is shown (such as not punishing Altar and Black Hand for the terror they spread, not punishing Azkur & Caenedrin for what they did to Udungul, not punishing Mute, Delkin, Putin, Kvedulf and others properly when it came out they were cheating in many ways), they start believing they can get away with anything by just lying and not accepting blame - In Durmanhoth's case, as shown by the guild's attitude of 'what did we do wrong?! we were never warned!' in the last few days and when their GH was removed, it has become the guild's philosophy. You had all the warnings and all the sings, however you refused to listen. Obviously you would have continued that way, so it had to be cut clean at a point.
I think that could have been prevented if the ringleaders were punished and segregated at the right time, however hindsight is 20/20, so I don't think there's much point in blaming Valinor over it. They did what was best, and necessary for the good of the mud, even though it might taste bitter now. However, I still believe, if not all, most of the punishment was fit, and the collateral damage that the newbies of Durmanhoth suffered is going to hurt them and other players much less than a mud with Durmanhoth being tolerated in its recent form would have.
How's your YouTube account, Jaron?
Godwin's law. And uhm, this kind of attitude just proves Valinor's point better than anything they could say would - You guys would never accept the blame and try to reform, so it's pretty much like removing a malignant tumour. Sure, you lose some healthy tissue, but otherwise you'd die.
Well this is an odd way to see our war end. To all that were previously in durmanhoth you are removed from the bkd hitlist. Any dwarves with a genuine interest are welcome to apply to bkd.
Aye Borkaz.. Nail Jesus up! 80%-90% crowd approval baby! It must be the right thing to do!
Alright, borkaz, I have a few comments about that.
You have no idea what the majority thinks, as the majority of the players on this mud don't use the comm much, etc.
Also, it seems to me, that if this was around WWII, you would be saying that since most people were in favor of it, the Holocaust was good?
*agrees with Borkaz
People often have different opinions and ideas about a subject. What I saw when this happened is that almost! everybody on the mud didn't shed a tear. So denying that nothing illegal was happening doesn't cut it imo.
Some want to know what the reason 'againt the spirits of the mud' means. I don't know yet, but maybe Valinor will state it. Give them time.
I think it meant alot of things said before: MP, Botting and so on.
Is that grave enough to remove a guild? Some will say no, some will say yes. When was there ever 100% approval?
Fact of the matter is that some people are running the mud (admin) and that some people play it. Some think it's wrong and some say it was the right thing to do.
Some people are so one-minded (tunnelvision) that credible proof of the other side is dismissed right out of hand.
When around 80-90% agrees with a descision like this, I think it is a descision well taken and has the approval of the majority of the players. (that is important) The ones with the big mouth shouldnt always prevail over the quiet ones.
Maybe you can DEMAND an explanation, but I think you should ask for one. If it doesn't suit you, then luckily you aren't living in a country like China where it's hard and dangerous to flee, but simply not starting up your client is an easy way to leave so your bloodpressure isn't becoming a hazard.
And if you weren't covering them 4-5 months ago, Manni, they would have been nuked. But it wasn't only them and you know it. I haven't law reported durms for a long time but I did see 'wrong' things each boot. The Durmanhoth guild was actively destroying RP. RP is this MUD's strength - what differs it from all other MUDs out there. If you wanna play a Tolkien MUD, you kind of have to come here. You can 'domecheck' everywhere else. Or maybe not everywhere;)
The Durmanhoth guild, sooner or later, ends up with G-Unit type of players. Imagine you put all this energy to something other than Durmanhoth.
Yep, cause letting an alt of the person who abused the overthrow bug back into your guild is showing such great commitment to turning a new leaf for your guild. Knowing you guys, I'm sure there was a hell of a lot more other things going on as well.
Well here's the problem... The GH removal was apparently a warning... A warning not to mess with other guilds. Since that moment, nobody has messed with another guild to my knowledge -- nothing was brought up in our Skype chat to that effect, at least and that's where it would have to be brought up to be legitimate.
Anyway, when the guildhall was suspended, I told everyone to stop doing stuff that would get law reports called on them. I turned people down when they asked for EQ for their alts and I told everyone to make sure they didn't party with anyone who was causing these MP reports. I read hundreds of pages of Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales and wrote a 5 or 6 page theme draft in preparation for the theme review where I thought we'd be marked for immediate shitcanning.
If there were members who were cheating or doing things that were against the spirit of the MUD, it's the PoL's job to investigate and punish them for the crimes they've committed. When they do those things. Waiting for enough law reports to stack up, then nuking because of snowballing popular opinion because the same 10 or 12 people whine on the comm and the log page is not the proper way to handle a situation. If you had nuked Mute and Delkin for cheating 4 months ago, the guild would still be around and there would be no way to claim 'systemic cheating'.
Idell
Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 245
Location: South Carolina, USA
PostPosted Post subject Reply with quoteFind all posts by Idell
ok, word on the street is waste is going to let anyone who is level 15 and has 5k into dungs, and you dont even need the 5k up front, so everyone out there with an alt go serve and apply to dungs, because immagine how hilarious it will be when we take it over and transfer their entire vault to durmanhoth...again
yep, harming no one! Not to mention taking over QB, multiplaying with Black Hand, etc etc. List goes on. You had your warnings, you didn't heed them, whine more.
mine is lvl 53!
This is the best one!
I choose you, Hypocrimon!
And to those who are whining about unfairness, everything is fair in war, love and pokemon battles.
Hehe i just thought of this. I wounder what would have happend if the war had ended back when you agreed but the durm members then said no. I guess it wouldnt have made a diffrence but you never know i guess. Im not really sad seing durms go, i mean sure they could have punished just Delkin and mute and even maybe Manni and put a new GM for durms, but within a week all of the old nuked/kicked members would be reinvited so i guess this was the only solution in the eye's of the admin. But it's never fun when admins go in and make this kind of huge things. But i mean atleast they had a reason to remove durms because it was alot of cheating and other stuff. While removing FRA and rims and some other guilds i forgot all they mentioned was theme, and in those instaces i think playability should go first.
I noticed its always the guilty who whine about the punishment.. The writing was on the wall, i'm sure there was an assload of warnings. Not to mention you lost your gh because of it.. The actions of a few ruined your efforts and wasted your time, you should be blaming them.
it's not like it was such a task to gold using the 'ethring_bot.mud'
Reading that was like homework. Surely this can't seem like a reasonable justice system to all of you? There are many of us ED's(ex-durmanhoth) who have worked so hard over the last 12-15 months to build a guild in the manner we wanted (withing the rules), who are being severely screwed here. We spent hours golding, gearing, playing to game and poured everything we had into a guild that was not punished in any manner I can say I would have expected considering lawsys. Please don't say lame bs like you should have caught them cheating etc and rid them from your halls. Surely you dont believe that it was guild comm chatter to cheat and break the rules(this would obviously have been punished), therefore its unreasonable to say punish them as a whole(which happens to be 60ish extra guys/gals who haven't been accused of any cheating.) The truth of the situation here is that there were many members who publicly asked for evidence and the nuking of individual players(what I can only feasibly/arguably to be 10% or less), which Valinor did not have. I guess that is why they had to use the lame excuse they did. It's quite disheartening to know that the system has no provision for those the administrators simply do not like.
Bottom line is there are too many active players here who played within the rules and lost lots of their hard work because of vague and general suspicions. At most, from the reasons I have heard, they can only justify nuking 2 people(assuming the things said were true).
Its well past my bedtime and I'm while im sure I have more to add, but my eyes cannot stay open much longer. More to come I suppose.
Yeah, what Orcoron said.
I mean seriously, unless you're BKD or a South Gondor gridmon. What difference does it make?
I sure as hell have never logged in and thought 'Gee wiz today I'm going to go and...AWW FUCK I CAN'T BECAUSE OF DURMS!'
'FUCK YOU DURMS! YOU RUINED MY DAY!'
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this will vastly improve the game. These game isn't attracting new players. There are no new players it's a dead genre. So with every person or group they kick off or make to feel unwelcome they're just shrinking down the number of people that will play their game.
You get..what 3 new players a year or something? You lose 10? 20?
You think all the Durm newbies will just go into other guilds and whatnot? Who do you think will actually fucking take them? Maybe Duncan's guild and Quickblades. Maybe.
A lot are going to stop playing because now that they don't have their guild hall all the people they pissed off or people their ex-guild mates pissed off are going to have some fun killing them.
I have not made any comment here yet. But Daywalkers comment forced me to. I think that you have missed something here. The game is not all about PK for all of the people out there.
Not all gold and kill NPCs because they HAVE TO.
If Arda had 50 unique players, does this mean that all of them play an alt at the same time when there are around 100 players online?
But on the other hand, if we think that the actions Durmanhoth were taking and what they were doing, perhaps playing two alts at the same time is what we consider normal.
I play this game because I think its fun. If constant cheating is going to be accepted, it wont be fun.
I almost quit this game during BP:s, why? Because it turned into only PK. I think also those of you that are great at PK and very skilled at this part of the game has to realize that there are more people out there that dont find your way of playing the most interesting part of the game.
Well, if thats true Otoron I can only be happy for whoever is taking care of udungul at the moment. I tried so hard at the time of the whole situation to get back something from Durms to jolt back life into Udungul but unfortunantly the situation dragged from getting the whole portion back to getting a marginal portion to finally being involved in all out war with Durms so that they can destroy whatever was left from Udungul. My main grudge at the time was not only towards Manni or his crew but towards the ainu who allowed such a thing to happen. As I vaguely remember some other guild had the same situation, Glorglas I believe, and they got the support of the ainu, but with Udungul, we recieved an uncaring shrug.
Anyways, I am glad everything is going back to order and yes, I am happy for Arda that durms are gone, when now I realise that Delkin was that prick Dighi who posted the questinfo site and was responsible of newbie killing, I am even more glad that things were put to order.
Hi all.
As you might know, I don't have much RL time to play a game right now.
However, at the time I was playing, I was left with the belief that Ainur have gotten smarter after the incident with the new mud.
This recent event with the disbanding of the best guild of Arda has proved me wrong.
This is a simple message for all the Admins / Powers / Idiots / whatever they call themselves:
'Your Game is alive because of the people who fight and invest emotions.
You believe that the mud should be just walking and reading descriptions.
Truth is that noone from those average 60 people that you have online spends more than 100 days of their LIFE to read your stupid texts.
If you are smart enough to do some statistic count, you will see that Arda has about 50 Unique players that have around 3-4 characters each.
They are here to fight people who they hate, or to satisfy their ego to be someone they can't be in their life. Or just to get out of reality.
You, ainur, get in your thick heads that the game is based on Player Killing, Equipment Gathering and partially on Exploring New Quests.
Think that someone likes to kill NPCs 10 hours a day to quest gold? They do it because they have to.
You nuked people who made the game fun for others. You disbanded the guild that was pulling the mud towards a better future.
What will happen if every guild is like Valacirca? Nobody will fight noone. There will not be a _stronger_ guild, newbies will have nothing to follow as an example, nothing to attempt to be BETTER than.
How do you expect people not to get bored? How do you expect to create a better player base? More skillful, more interested in the game.
You say they cheated, HELL, you have no damn idea how much everyone in the game is cheating.
And why are they cheating? If I see someone abuse a bug, I will think:
'god, I am stupid to have left that bug to the publicity'
You think:
'they abuse a bug, lets nuke them, its their fault'
Its your own damn box, patch it and dont whine for someone 'cheating'.
As for the websites, I am the proud owner of the www.t2tmud.info domain name and I provide the hosting for that domain. And this Web Site will be there as long as I am alive. And there is nothing you can do about it.
Now, go play BIG BOSSES to all the newbies around.
P.S. Castamir, if you still have the code of the new mud, send it to me, I will host it.'
Love ya all,
Daywalker
Tokin has a point.
Manni was a hobbit. You can't nuke hobbits.
Haha, yeah, sure. 'I don't even have alts!'
How is it understandable that I got nuked? I never cheated, mp'ed, or anything else, despite all you sluts' constant accusations.
Haha. Thank you, Waste, for reminding us all of an older, more forgotten way in which Durmanhoth tried so hard to make life fun for people who had poured blood, sweat, and tears into their guild.
Word on the street is that Udungul got a slice of the Durms vault. Hope that's so, and hope it makes you smile.
I read probably about the first 50 comments before I got over reading them.
Still, i'm hell pissed about this, but I can understand it and i'm moving on.
I can understand Delkin and Mute being nuked. But I truly believe Manni shouldn't be nuked. Maybe nuked, but not hardbanned - I dunno. I'm still a strong supporter of Manni.
I liked your poker side Waste. I couldn't agree more, and they tend to completely ignore the MP behind how Udungul was screwed by durms.
This seems like a more bullshit reason then what they do to Exhalev, ah well, you can't fight the law and win!
Hey guys, someone just msn'ed me this has happened. Wow, I did not get the chance to go through all the comments below but one comment made by Manni stood out:
'I never once logged on and thought that I would be harming the spirit of the MUD....and not when I was GM of Arda's biggest and most fun guild for the past fantastic 16 months, not for a minute at any of those points did I feel like I was harming the spirit of the MUD. '
Dude, theres a saying in poker that players rarely remember their good winning hands or the bad beats they deal to others, but they remember with surprising accuracy the bad beats they received.
You blow yourself in thinking you created the 'most fun guild' without remembering the way you created your guild. Karma is a bitch, and you should know that you were in fact harming the spirit of the mud in every moment you spent as GM of your so called 'fantastic guild'. You stole Udungul guild gold and thought it was ok, you created your guild from the blood and sweat of other people and you dare to think that you havent harmed the spirit of the mud in your time? One of the most powerful guilds was dying out because of you and when they were trying to resalvage themselves you tried your best to crush their spirits. Its ludicrous to think you were never harming the spirit of the mud.
My example is just one, and I am sure that many others have some sort of experience with your 'fantastic guild' that you forgot all about. But like I said, people who harm others rarely remember what they have done, but the harmed ones are those who will always have the memory going with them.
Like Rathmar said, explanations of nukes were usually just a courtesy in the past, and your nuke along with your other friends is just like that. Good luck to the rest of Arda in enjoying life without the fantastic guild of durmanhoth.
Holy shit Mute. YOUR ENTIRE HALL WAS REMOVED as a punishment not two weeks ago. What the fuck do you call that?!
And about cleaning house, etc. Since when did the ainur decide who you can and can't have in your guild? If they don't want someone in a guild or playing the game at all, then punish that person as best you can, not people who did nothing wrong.
We received no prior warning, nor a reason (other than the vague 'crimes against the spirit of the mud')for our removal. To be honest, I'm still not sure why we were removed. Oh well, its irrelevant at this point.
I don't think help reimbursements applies here. If it did, then there would never have been reinstated characters that were nuked.
Time and effort they put into the guild? Since I've been told it so many times: help reimbursements.
If they were so concerned with their time and effort, they ought have cleaned house after losing their hall as punishment for what was going on.
The writing has been on the wall, and, frankly, the complete inability to own up to a shred of responsibility for any of this on the part of the members and leaders of the Durmanhoth makes it quite clear to me just how fucked up they were. They're awful victims of evil persecution, completely innocent of all wrong-doing. Puh-lease.
That was ambiguous about collective punishment in the opening. Obviously a group is targeted - its collective punishment - but the people who suffer suffer as individuals. In this case their clubhouse was removed. They themselves were not targeted. That is what I was trying to convey.
If they weren't targeted for punishment, then they all should at least be reimbursed for the time and effort they put into their guild. Otherwise, even if they weren't targeted, they have been punished.
Its a rule of the mud that you can't play 5 characters at once, reading the rules tells you that. Where in the rules does it say that your guild will be destroyed if the Administration doesn't like it? Another bad analogy.
Trempk, there is one huge flaw in your reasoning. Collective punishment implies that the people are punished as individuals, and that would be awful. You're engaging in some mildly clever intellectual sleight of hand. These people were not targeted for punishment.
Three individuals were punished, and the institution - not the individuals who were in it - was punished. A guild that condoned, and arguably encouraged, cheating up to and including the worst sort (targeting other people's guilds), was removed.
Ninety percent of its members were not targeted. They were not punished. Their guild was destroyed. I sure as shit don't remember you arguing against this same sort of thing happening to CoU when your guild at the time was in a war against them, but, hey, it's been almost ten years and my memory is going. You wanna point me to your righteous indignation about how unfair it was then?
These other members no longer have a guild that has been around for all of what - two or three years? A guild whose leadership actively condoned and passively encouraged cheating for a big chunk of it. No, instead they are off to join other guilds and play the game. Does it suck that their former guild was deleted and some gold and time they sunk into it is gone? Sure. Are they innocent victims unfairly targeted by collective punishment? No. Their complicity in all this is in fact let slide, and they're left unpunished.
Trempk, honestly, they were warned so many times for their crap. The guild hall was only temporarily removed (the first time) as a warning. If you were part of a guild and it had been removed, and you took the answer of why it was removed at face value from only your guildmates then its called ignorance. It would be much similiar to saying you didn't realize having 5 characters on at once through a method taught to you wasn't illegal. And the removal was a WARNING to the ENTIRE guild. If the newbies continued to ignore these signs and do what they normally do and were told instead of asking questions, and trying to persuade the leadership to change, they as well are not then these completely innocent players you speak of. Otoron said it much better. Noone was interested in changing based on feedback given from Valinor, noone was innocent.
I'm wondering what kind of response there was when the first FRA was destroyed, or the first CoU. Or am I just completely wrong about those things happening? :P
If Durmanhoth was still in the game it wouldn't be too difficult for Mute, Delkin, and Manni to be back in the guild.
I haven't forgotten, but its one thing to punish one player for something he did that wasn't really against the rules or was borderline at best, but its a completely different thing to punish a bunch of people (I'm told around 80) because you don't like their guild and how **some** of them play in a way that you don't like, but is within the rules. Especially when there are fair ways to handle it (punishing the people who are actually breaking the rules, or at least creating new rules to keep them in line).
And your analogy is flawed. You're grouping the whole guild together into one 'problem child.' Which is exactly what I'm complaining about. Does the problem child in the example have multiple personalities or something? Who are the innocent victims in that analogy?
I think Rathmar wins.
It's a shame Valinor didn't wait until April 1 to do it.
Then everyone would be arguing about whether or not it's a joke.
Well Trempk, apparently in your 10+ years you forgot what it was like in the old days, when things like excuses and reasons given were a courtesy, and rare. This is nothing new, and most of you are just shocked as you grew up under Draugluin's seeming more and more lenient hand.
The truth of the matter is that really the Administration is simply like running a large guild. If you have a problem child in the guild, you scold them and give them warnings. Yet let's say said character can't be proven to have cheated. Yet time and again you listen to other members who complain about that player, to the point where they stop logging in, or quit the guild. Eventually you need to up and remove the bad egg and deal with the aftermath of unrest. It's really a lot more feasable when you stop looking at the mud as a place where you have 'rights' and 'deserve things' and look at it as a free game some kids cooked up and let you play on it. If you had someone you didn't like in your weekly poker group, what do you do? Stop inviting them to come play.
While I won't debate the 'merit' of the punishment received, as all I know is that the durms were considered a nuissance, perhaps altering the way you look at these turn of events will help see how this is possible. It probably won't, though, and I'm sure you'll be able to spew forth hatred on forums to fall upon deaf ears.
That said, if you the ainur could be specific about it than 'against the spirit of the mud' I think a lot of people would be more satisfied. And you know, even if they can't show people multiplaying beyond doubt because of proxy clients, there is such a thing as enough circumstantial evidence. People get convicted of murder on that all the time (though yeah at least a few end up being innocent :P )
Foraker, they are newbies, they have no will! :P
I can see Aule descending from the heavens into the crypt and saying: 'All yer base are belong to us.'
As to Durmanhoth being removed, sometimes an institution becomes so riddled with corruption that you have to tear the whole thing down. I'm dubious just nuking Manni, Delkin and Mute would have fixed it. Nobody ever likes seeing a guild removed but it appeared that Durmanhoth had a culture of cheating and were as others said more of a gang than a guild. Yeah some guilds don't have much RP, but Durmanhoth took it to extremes. Will some innocent players leave over this? Probably. But it's like chemotherapy! To kill the cancer you have to kill some good cells as well.
Exactly, when did it become the administration's job to decide for players where their place in the game is? I don't think I've ever seen such an abuse of power in the 10+ years I've played this game. And you all are giving pats on the back just because you didn't like some of the people who were punished; its ridiculous.
haha Mordhred, that made me think of us Americans going into Iraq to free them :P They don't want to be freed!
Like I said before, unless someone can tell me that everyone in that guild cheated, then its unfair. Its that simple. Punish people who do things wrong, not people who play by the rules. And I bet some of those newbies won't look for a new home in the game, they'll look for a new game.
And its not an either/or situation. Just run the game fairly and punish the people who break the rules.
I'd much rather have this place run like the Something Awful forums than an unregulated mess, so I agree with Pounder.
So you are supporting a guild that for all intents and purposes, openly supported the transfer of clients/client settings, MP'ing, using bugs/glitches as well as had guides on how to kill newbies? Everyone in senior leadership were involved and/or knew very well what was going on. This means that way of things was a culture and it seeped through the rest of the players in one form or another. Not removing the symbol (durmanhoth in this case), but punishing only the players will only broadcast that they only punish those who are caught and if you can get away with it, keep going. Someone will always get the short end of the stick in a situation like this. But it won't have any lingering impact as most likely the groups of newbies will join and find another home. The admin have stressed that noone is supposed to target these players. They want people to give them another chance. If they really wanted to go unfair, they would have just nuked nearly everyone in the guild and banned many many more even if they were only suspicous of them.
Trempk, all those newbies and other normal people under the Durmanhoth leadership are now free to seek their independence and their place in Arda. They have not been wronged or punished. They have been released. *applauds*
Oh, also, I want to tip my hat to a few of the BkD that I grew to respect throughout the duration of the war. Nalthic and Bentelbow come to mind first. Was good fighting against you guys, you never gave up no matter what the odds were.
You know what? Fine. You all didn't like that guild, any of the people in it, or how they played the game. Therefore you don't give a shit if the ones who didn't break the rules are wronged by the administrators. Wasn't everyone else up in arms when Skyman got a verbal warning for not playing the game like they wanted him to? Now everyone has a different opinion because they don't like the people it happened to?
You all apparently have a different sense of justice and fairness than I do. One that is apparently biased and flexible based on your relationship to whoever is wronged. Its disappointing really.
lawlz0rz
SKR-HUBS
It wasn't a guild in the first place, it was a gang, as they liked to call themselves now and then.
Why don't you actually read what I've said? I have no problem with nuking Delkin; my problem is with deleting their guild.
Trempk, look at the most recent log by Delkin.
1st Generation
Dighi
2nd Generation/3rd Generation
Bunch of no names.
Last Generation
Delkin, Evendim, Goomboo, Senwith
If that doesn't give you reason enough, you should really find another game to play or research the issue a great deal more. You have no respect for what the powers are trying to prevent the towers from turning into. See: Public games of D2, Q3, WoW, Unmodded Forums, ETC ETC ETC. The powers are giving the players a final chance to really spin the place into a great community again. This was not possible with the influence durms had.
If punishing a bunch of people just because you don't like their guild is in the spirit of the mud, then its in a pretty sad state right now, imo.
Help rules, it's in the beginning.
Just out of curiosity, can anyone actually define what the spirit of the game is?
I don't mean what you think it is. I'm sure there will be 100 different answers. I mean what is it officially and what makes it the official spirit of the game?
That was not enough flaming, you two. Stop with the apologies and shit.
Apologies accepted. hehe :)
I got the implication that the kid had a higher level alt, and was feigning ignorance. My apologies.
If you didn't notice, what I was pointing out was the fact that the person had really no clue 'what was wrong about it' and thought it was normal.
And that is the only time you have ever seen a character alt entered into a guild to help the war, Mordhred? That we were the sole instructors in such practice?
[new] Date: 01. Apr, 2008, 2:49:41 By: Shabba
Oh and we were all waiting for the 'You hate us because we're better than you' reason. Have fun being delusional.
Someone said it on the comm: now soem durm will come up with 'they disbanded us because we are too good for the game to handle'. It's sad it was Manni who did this lame statement, I was expecting someone like Delkin.
Whoo-ah Otoron. Pretty well fucking said.
wow, Otoron's comment for the win.
A few days ago I met one of the so called 'Durmanhoth newbies'. He was playing an alt and in the middle of the conversation we got to the point where he left it slip: 'I'm building this char to help Durms in the war.'
I tried to no avail to argue and convince him about how that was wrong and terrible etiquette. I gave up after some time of course. Anyways, that's what they teach to the newbies in Durmanhoth I guess. Or what they used to. Hopefully we can use the past tense now after the punishments.
Is the lack of transparency shit, and frustrating, and sad? Yes. Is this the first time a guild was deleted for asshattery? No.
Can we please recognize that a reason Durms were suspended was their fucking with Quickblades, and the severe punishment Manni gave to the offender was to let said offender's alt back into Durmanhoth?
Some responsibility should be taken for some really poor judgement calls in clutch situations, resulting in a whole team getting screwed because of the actions of some of their star players. Durmanhoth may not have explicitly encouraged this cheating, but they knowingly turned a blind eye to it, and welcomed it in their halls.
There was a culture of cheating and corruption, and perhaps Manni shouldn't have been nuked for it, and perhaps a captain having to go down with his ship is absurd, but it would be nice if _some_ responsibility was taken by the leadership of the Durmanhoth.
The 'Durmanhoth newbies' shouldn't be pissed off at Valinor, they should be pissed off at their leaders for failing them so spectacularly. And the fact of the matter is, the huge push for getting new players into a place that bred cheating is a combination that is really problematic. We raised our last generation of new players on battlepoints, and it didn't exactly go swimmingly. It is no wonder that Valinor didn't want this generation raised inside the Durmanhoth.
I'll let everyone know when I am done with my response.
Btw Sunflash, I love you, come back again bro. <3
Oh, and I wonder if Manni will cry like Sunflash did...
God, what a lame goodbye comment to blow a legacy on.
Oh and we were all waiting for the 'You hate us because we're better than you' reason. Have fun being delusional.
Hahahaha oh please. You guys' comments are making Durms look like a guild of 15 years old innocent virgins.
Good Kilin.. You're a horrible spy btw. And Manni, go be a politician and I'll assure you you'll have a hell of a career.
I forgot to add one thing... As far as getting a guild disbanded for unclear, unspecified reasons that cannot be and were not proven... I'd like to say that we were nuked for being too good at recruiting, too good at powerplaying, and too good at PKing (although BkD gave us a hell of a run). Maybe you can add too good at cheating to that list, but since there's no proof, nobody will know. And because we were too good at all these things, the only way to get rid of us was through disbanding. Thus, I'm declaring Durmanhoth victorious over T2T. I always thought T2T was one of those games you couldn't ever win, but today I feel like I have. So all of us ex-Durms have that to be proud of.
Bye Manni :(
It was time for me to move on anyway. The way this was handled shows how childish and primitive the game is. Take care.
A few loudmouths might think the whole guild was cheating, but you have to give the rest of the MUD some credit. Anybody with a bit of intelligence would know otherwise.
In the real word teams get punished for something one person does, if you want to bring the real world into this Durms should have been nuked long ago.
Look, the guild was deleted for 'cheating'... The fact of the matter is, no matter if we did or didn't its now painted in your eyes that all the members were cheating...
In the real world that would be libel and hold as much weight as a wet paper bag.
Thanks for doing the best to ruin the game for people.
Looks like I'll be getting my moneys worth from WoW...
Durbatuluk didn't have a problem with them, to my knowledge. I've heard a lot about Durmanhoth cheating, and not much good. I don't know if they deserved it or not... it could be that Valinor does have more on them than just those three. Whether they can or will give us the details that led to the decision is the only question I have.
comment no. 100!!!111!!one
And nobody is saying that everybody in Durms cheated, most of the people probably didn't, but in some cases when there is so much cheating going on for as long as it has been here there really isn't a whole lot you can do other than punish everybody. The people who didn't cheat were punished for not doing anything about the people who did.
Foxxx, I can't think of a single guild in Arda, which doesn't want Durmanhoth gone.
^ (OOC) Belshazzar: Jesus is coming! Look busy!
btw, i just noticed that, and it's hilarious
that wasn't one word, Kilin!
But don't get me wrong though, I wish the best of luck to all the Durms not knowing about the cheating going on - quite a few more Durms could've been nuked since I know plenty more that knew of the cheating. It's not for me to judge however, and thus I will not.
What is their to really celebrate about? The fact that an influential and historical guild was deleted without any clear justification on the part of valinor? The bigger concern should be whether or not arda is going to stand by and watch the ainur do whatever they deem is for the greater good, and if so, then how long before one of your characters or guilds are considered unfit to remain in the game.
You told Manni-alt: Well, do you honestly claim you didn't know what was going on?
Manni-alt told you: Well... it was always don't ask don't tell
I am sorry, but you can't say you were clueless about this. Even if you might be a great guy, you did a mistake letting them continue with this bullshit. I know for a fact that if someone approached Carver and told them that I was playing five chars + getting around a hardban, he wouldn't be satisfied with me telling him 'don't ask...'.
A wiser choice would've been to boot Mute and Delkin. You gambled when you let them stay, and you lost.
Castamir, you haven't been around. The durms deserved it. They were destroying the MUD. It's not like the admins picked a random guild and nuked it. All the guilds in Arda were annoyed by Durmanhoth. And they did cheat and Manni did know about it and was covering it and wasn't discouraging it. The powers ONLY nuked 3 high ranking members and disbanded a guild with a poor RP. They could've nuked a lot more people, right?
All you people that are happy about the guild being deleted, one word of advice...
Use lube tonight when you celebrate it by yourself...
Orcoron: please share that reason with us that missed it. All I heard was that he was nuked for denying to have done something that I don't know what is :P .. Poor uninformed me ;-)
Well ok, I meant they'd given some specifics. With Mute and Delkin there's a history of known and repeated cheating. So even though they haven't stated it (I agree they should) that is the reason they've been nuked and most people know that.
With Manni apparently it's because he was the GM while they were cheating. That's what I mean by a bullshit reason.
That's exactly what I mean, Orcoron. I'm asking that the PoL publicly says that 'there is no other reason than //crimes against the spirit of the MUD//'. That would be enough for me.
There is a whole world of difference between a 'bullshit nuke' and a 'nuke we have hidden reasons for'. Transparency is what I'm asking for.
Castamir, they've given the reason. It's just that the reason is clearly bullshit.
Enuf.
While I have personal reasons to keep away for now, I believe this is time for an action. Not as desperate as the fork, though.
I propose: let's make a fund. We can ask the Powers how much would they demand for a rule, which in turn lets us demand a thorough explanation for a punishment bestowed.
To prevent abuse, every such demand would need to be submitted by 10 50d+ players (otherwise every single rabbit botter would use it for an appeal...). Since usually questionable nukes/silences/bans involve actions of alts, the guilty party would have to waive his privacy as well, of course.
There's nothing about overturning the punishment here. Just explaining the reasons for it.
I'm starting with $100 on the table. Who's with me?
Love you too, Castamir.
Tulkas told me my hard ban might not be permanent, just that he didn't want me re-forming a clan under my leadership...
So... I mean... I'm obviously not going to go through the hassle of re-forming a clan. Forming clans is for young, spry people who don't need a guildhall to idle in. I'd most likely disappear into a nook somewhere. If Tulkas had talked to me before nuking me and hard banning me, maybe he would've known that too. Anyway, I think the character 'Manni' has enough history and good will towards the MUD associated with him that he should be re-instated. Destroying the guild I donated 1.3 million gold to and nuking a 12 year old character that was an Overlord for a nuke reason of 'the captain has to go down with the ship' (Tulkas's words) is pretty bullshit.
I was officially the first person to call it. Screw you Colven.
And that's really all I have to say.
While some members played a greater role than others, we all worked toward the greater good of the guild and should never have had our gh removed from the game for a second time because the ainur didnt like a few of its leaders. A handful of us put in a lot of time and effort three years ago to resurrect the Durmanhoth guild, and while I am the only one of that bunch who is still semi active, I believe we all feel a great injustice has been done here.
Yes.
How many of you guys are white middle-class American males? Jeffrey Dahlmer was a white middle-class American male. In fact most famous serial killers are. So, should all white middle class American males go to prison for what he did?
*agrees with Otoron*
Like anyone would consider any of the other guys part of Durmanhoth. Durms WERE the guys that got nuked. The rest of the guys were just their lackeys
Well no one can tell you that, we had over 80 members so out of that I would say 4 or 5 have been accused of unethical behavior in the past, which leaves 75 of us who valinor straight up jacked!
Well, until someone tells me that every single member of that guild cheated, or even the majority, I will consider it an unfair punishment and uncalled for.
Herkimers.
So without Durmanhoth around, who will the united players of t2t focus their hate on now?
If you ask me this looks like a decision designed to get Stalinor some kudos.
A:'Hey guys, you know we're not very popular anymore..'
T:'Were we ever?'
A:'Well no but hey, I was thinking if we nuked Durms, posted some pretty echos and made a big deal about it then everyone would love us. Everyone hates the Durms.'
T:'But do we actually have any more evidence of them cheating than we did yesterday? I mean we've got a lot on Delkin and Mute but fuck nuking them right?'
A: 'Who the fuck cares!? It's our MUD. Everyone will love us again!'
I should be a script writer. That dialogue was bad enough to get put on daytime TV.
Castamir's last point is spot-on.
Jaron, I understand your feelings about bastards from Herkimer. By 'bastards' I mean certain individuals, I don't mean that the whole school is bad. While I am not very knowledgeful about PoL matters, I have seen them taking part in a massive character-stealing spree. And I've know enough about them botting/MPing if they don't know about an outright gold bug.
A mass-nuking of cheaters involved is fine. Remove them, hardban them, forbid anyone to deal with know alts, whatever.
But nuking old players like Manni with impeccable (as far as I know only, though) history because of crimes of someone else... that's bad.
Yet, it's not what I'm objecting to here. What I object to is nuking ANYONE without naming a clear crime
heh, i thought jaron was much older... just 2 years more than me
Correction: I don't think it is possible
Otoron, I wasn't around back then, so I can't really say anything about it.
Jaron, ironically, the last time I've seen the atmosphere you're referring to was when your guild was removed.
Muaddib, Castamir and anyone who has not been around actively lately (or at least I think they weren't), this must be pretty confusing for you. I don't think it is impossible to explain the way Durms were, or how the atmosphere within the mud was before this occurred. I know I haven't seen anything like it since I started mudding in early 2000s, but it was not due to a single person's vengeance or such, even though it is possible to disagree with it from Trempk's and Orcoron's angles.
Muaddib you're dreaming if you ever actually expect the Admins to give you the exact things they did to be nuked for. Some nukes are well deserved and the reason is pretty simple; bug abuse, multiplaying, harassment etc. The other 50% of nukes are because the Admins don't like you and what you get nuked for just happens to be what they thought the best excuse would be.
Tlaloc, if what you allege is true, then it should be mentioned. I have yet to hear about Manni breaking ANY rule. All I hear is that some random member bots/cheats/MPs/whatever.
For a punishment to have a color of law, the crime must be disclosed.
Shardik, I doubt that. For better or for worse, what was shown on the log was not a momentary, or light decision. It was well thought out, which probably included weighing the reaction from players over it. Undoing such a tremendous decision after such organized publicity would make Valinor look like indecisive fools, which is the last thing any kind of ruling class could want/afford.
Whether the decision is good or not, I've mixed feelings. I'll probably write a boring long comment about it tomorrow.
I know Mute had it coming. I know Delkin had it coming. And perhaps having the guild forced back to a shack and forcing them to rebuild it might have been reasonable. But this is over the top. I fucking hate Durms but they deserve their guild and for Manni to be hardbanned over this is bullshit.
In the words of the battle rap master, we need to take this bitch to trial!
Lobo: I see nothing spectacular in this log. Some echo's and some nukes. Sure it was descent made by the ainur. But the shutdown event is much better made and I am sure much more time was put into making it.
Biggest part missing in this log is some explanation of the reasoning behind these actions. If not just for the old friends of these victims then to help other GM's to know how to prevent this.
Besides. A log of a global event as number 1 on the log archive? HAH :P .. Give the guys that with their own actions made spectacular logs some credit and vote this log what it deserves. The mad skills of logging a global even deserves a 6 eh? :P
but yes, I wouldn't be surprised if this was reversed anyways :(
Anyone who thinks durms didn't have this coming for them is either way too inactive to know what's going on in the MUD or mentally retarded.
Ok whoever made those last 2 videos, i'm going to school and when i get back, i demand a new vid about the recent happenings.
Well, Castamir, an example for a crime against the spirit of the MUD is being nuked for newbiekilling on an alt and then pretending you are the shiniest newbie helper on your Durm alt. Also, MP equipment sharing and everything. And when your AGM parties with your non guilded alt to fill your armoury, well, you can't really learn the spirit of the MUD, can you?
Holy shit, without reading the comments, I have a feeling these nukes will be reversed.
I really wish I could muster my typical smug sense of righteousness in my opinion on this one, but I'm really at a loss how to take this. Sicarius makes some great points, Castamir mentions the thing that really bothers me about it.
There should never EVER be a 'newbie' guild. Newbies shouldn't be in guilds. They don't need guilds, and they get nothing out of being in guilds except being taught only the things which benefit the guild and not themselves.
Explain how Tlaloc. Please. Disrupting RP? What does that mean? What action is involved and what new actions are now possible that were not possible yesterday?
Please, tell me this is an April's fools joke.
Because... you know... we did have massive anti-free speech abuses before. So bad that people got nuked for nothing but criticizing the Fuhrer (a different fuhrer at that time) and daring to say they didn't like change X. But, nuking someone because an admin didn't like a member of their guild... that's beyond the words.
I demand an explanation what 'Crimes against the spirit of the mud' mean. Because that's equal to 'treason against the workers class', the typical crime charged against folks here in Poland by the puppet government.
Orcoron, the MUD is going to be way better without a guild disrupting RP so heavily. But you already think I am retarded, haha:)
If anyone honestly believes the MUD will actually be noticably better because Durms don't have a GH and some of their members got nuked then I think you're retarded. If you'd like to change my mind by listing the ways you believe it will be improved then by all means. I'm of the opinion that any large problems within this game begin and end with the Administration. What Trempk says is true. I dare any of you to go and call Sicarius a bitch and then call Silwen a bitch. See which one ends with you being nuked.
The comms made me laugh... :p
Annoying not knowing what these so called bad seeds did to invoke this unpresidented destruction and mistreatment.
Seen some big nukings a few times usually involving massive abuse of gold bugs or exp bugs. But never something like this :P
To get this kind of punishment you would probably have to do something like .. disagree with an ainur making em furious or something :P
If I was Power, I'd probably vote for an alternative decision. Perhaps some rehabilitation, or quickening of the RP checks on guilds. Anyways, Durms were a very active guild, and maybe that should be investigated - why they were active, and how to have more such guilds.
*shrugs*
*nods at Sicarius* I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
Trempk, this is the first time I have to completely disagree with you. They had good members yes, those members were punished only to a slight degree and they will be fine once they find new homes or make another one together as a positive collective. Doing something that pisses off a power is one thing, doing something where literally almost everyone hated you, despised you, and thought you were hurting the mud is a different case. Again, if someone asked you to get information on airport security for some money, and you did this, you cannot expect the government to just turn its head and not associate you with them. Also, if you were truly an innocent newbie, then the guild you thought you were part of was an illusion and therefore never existed as you thought it did in the first place. I personally never had a gripe against most of durms, especially before this shit boiled, and I extend my hand back to many of the friends and allies I had in Durms.
Yeah, you want your whole guild deleted because they do something some power obsessed ainur doesn't like?
It's funny, because most guilds I've been in have had to deal with the occasional troublemaker, and in most cases, there's a line, someone crosses it, and is removed from the guild.
What we had here was more than a few people who were crossing those lines on a regular basis.
Granted, the durms probably had more of a tolerance (perhaps even a reputation) for troublemaking.
The troublemaking always backfired and eventually half the mud would be after the Durms and they'd lay low for a while. Lather, rinse, repeat.
I guess things went too far this time!
The deletion of the guild and the nuking of its leadership is quite dramatic, but taken in context of the guild's history, it's not as surprising as perhaps it should be.
Trempk, you're an idiot. That is all.
muadibb, please enlighten us why you rated this a 3!
Lol, what the fuck? Since when is it the guildmasters of Arda's job to do the POL's work? This is complete bullshit. Crimes against the spirit of the mud? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? You pissed off my wife maybe? Stalinor to a new low.
damn, i have to agree with aduial
That was not really how I expected the war to end. I congratulate my enemy on a good fight. I look forward to a new 'post-war' era, with a clean slate, no grudges, no regrets and no enemy. Good Luck.
WTF???
absolute fucking bollocks
If I was a GM and my mates were constantly accused of cheating and MP by other morts and ainur (in the form of getting a lot of warnings and the occasional nuke), I think I would realize that because they are members of my guild this reflects poorly on my guild's image. By keeping them around as members I'm providing them a home and a safe place to keep cheating from and in other words - helping them. You can't house a whole bunch of cheaters and expect to get away with it. You can close your eyes and choose to ignore it, but that doesn't make it go away. You're housing and helping cheaters cheat. You can't say you weren't aware that your members were constantly cheating cos that's just silly :p We all know you're smarter than that.
To be 100% honest, the biggest issue with GM's I would have ever had, is them letting in people into their guild that are detrimental to the mud. Yeah, we all know stuff happens in guilds and with the volume of players in each, there is bound to be a few cheaters or bad seeds found through out its course. I just do not understand the choice that some make, hurting arda in order to save their guild. Remove the bad 10% of durms, and manni could have had a very successful guild that really contributed to arda. I didn't know pollux very well, but he's an example of someone who has a good sense of arda's spirit etc. Yeah we spat on the log pages about skill this etc, but we also had respect for each other once we got around to talking. I could nor ever will have any respect for fyng's sorry ass. There are some people that have no respect for others in the game. Things aren't on a personal level, they just want to go around playing Quake or some other game and pissing off people just for the purpose of doing it but in a very ugly way. Manni, I will not say you were deserving of a ban, but you were definitely worthy of nuke. You willingly let said people into your guild knowing their history and reputation and their adverse affect on the mud. I lost a few very good friends of mine on the mud when I would not tolerate Waste letting in (some of the same) certain people into Udungul to keep it alive. Many hate me, but I have always put the mud ahead of everything else in my priority list. Sadly, Manni put his guild first, then the mud.
It's fucking retarded. Mute and Delkin have been hardcore cheating for years. Delkin cheated every time he logged in by subverting a hardban. Took the Admins fucking years to finally clock on and do something. And what do they get? A fancy public nuke and hardban that doesn't mean shit because they'll just get a new proxy IP and be back..well probably right now.
Supporting it isn't the same as doing it. It's not like he was facilitating it. I mean I used to say all the time that people should run bots and cheat to the ying yang, just so long as they kept quiet on the comm. And nothing happened to m...oh.
the lameness astounds me...
way to go admins!
You'd have to be blind and deaf to not know everything they were doing wrong.
But when you sit here and defend them constantly it implies that you support their actions.
It's not my place to decide who's cheating and honestly it's not easy to figure out. Hell, the ainur are given a lot more tools for that than mortals. I can't see who's invited to guildhalls, who transfers equipment or gold where, what IPs they're playing from, and I can't snoop them. If an ainu had come to me and said 'Hey, he's cheating. We think he's bad for the game.' then maybe we could have worked things out.
I guess last week, Tulkas did ask if we (as a guild) hosted Durmanhoth.com. Durmanhoth.com has been hosted by different people at different times and the last time I was involved with anything posted there was in 2001 when Korzan controlled the site and I had an email address there. I don't have an FTP account there and I have no idea what's in any subdirectories there.
As far as the Dighi QI site... Aule talked to me about it, and we were able to have someone talk to someone who had the newbie killing stuff taken down so now that site is a little more MUD-friendly. To me, that's a positive change in terms of the spirit of the MUD. But we still don't control it.
Look, you can't systematically cover cheating, don't mind cheating when it happens in your guild and then not be held responsible. Manni was the leader of the Durmanhoth, not their lawyer. A leader is responsible for what is happening in his guild. Or at least he should be. Negligence which allows the breaking of the rules is also a crime you know. Manni, I bet I warned you about the idiots in your guild. You shouldn't have let them do whatever they feel like doing.
I definately called this one guys :P
I'm too lazy to look back through the logs but I made some comment about just nuking the guild.
Cruice, I didn't actually hitlist you, I just put a couple contracts on you and told Delvar he could kill you outside Mordor. Not that it matters, but just so the record is straight. :)
Manni bears the cross of leading so many idiots. He'll eventually raise again. I think.
valinor should contact Blizzard and ask 'em to disband the durmanhoth clan in WoW
accepting herkies in the guild was their greatest crime
Yea, I don't think nuking/hardbanning Manni was the right thing to do. Manni was always a cool guy. Maybe it was because he just hitlisted me... I'm in good with the ainur.
:)
As far as I know Manni supported all/most of his members' actions, and defended them as much as he could. So even if Manni didn't actively do anything himself, he's still guilty. That's my opinion though.
Well, he was the GM during all this shit after all. I guess he really had no choice but to try and make his guild look good, but honestly he should know they were up to no good.. But clearly he doesn't looking at his comment.
So does anyone know what Manni is supposed to have done to earn the hard ban? We all know what Mute and Delkin have done, but Manni?
Only another 300 comments to go Ardans!!!
*Agrees with Manni*. i (and many others) will surely miss him, a great GM indeed.
Greatest log ever, lets put this at the top guys
Hey, guildmasters are politicians. :) If I'm not advocating for my guild, I'm not doing my job.
Just for Delkin -
Yo, yo, so here's the story,
I assure it doesn't end in glory.
Arrived this guild called new Durmanhoth,
More than anything, they pissed people off.
Claimed to help newbies to help playerbase,
Then came along Delkin declaring 'We own your face'.
Much was being schemed in Manni head,
Declared a war and killed some dwarves dead.
They claimed to not cheat or multiplay,
If that was true then they would not have this day.
Cheating and multiplaying were to name a few,
But continue to say more, I dare not spew.
They thought it would be genius to overtake QB,
Claiming they were helping, they did dare plea!
Closure of their GH for a week was their punishment,
Ainu gave them a chance, bad judgement!
I hope we all learn a lesson for this today,
Not to behave like Durms in any way.
P.S Do I win the rap battle?
But for sure, i dont belive your mates are innocent too, just an example : How come does Durms have mels every boot? Answer : Mping... :(
It shouldnt be like this but i wasnt suprised actually... and Manni, i dont belive you are against the 'spirit' of the mud too...
I think Manni is a nice guy... With alittle overdose of sarcasm sometimes *grins*
Woh, there are actually people who feel sorry about Manni. It's like sympathizing a politician. However, I feel sorry only for the guild itself, not its crappy players.
I have to agree, what the fuck are you supposed to have done Manni? Do you even know what specific actions you or any of your co-nuked are supposed to have taken to do such harm?
dang, you got hardbanned?
I always liked you.
It's April 1st...dare I believe it?
I spent 120 days on the MUD as a mortal and another 30 or 35 as an immortal. I've been playing the MUD since the summer of 1996. I never once logged on and thought that I would be harming the spirit of the MUD. Not when I joined Valacirca as a newbie ranger, not when Mahamodie showed be Durmanhoth, not when I wandered between Amruin and FRA and Durmanhoth, not when I immorted and helped code and QC Tarzhayan, Kadar, and other parts of Harondor and Far Harad, not when Mute called me up and told me to come back and be GM of the new Durm, and not when I was GM of Arda's biggest and most fun guild for the past fantastic 16 months, not for a minute at any of those points did I feel like I was harming the spirit of the MUD.
So I was a little taken off guard when I got back from lunch today and had several instant messages telling me that I was nuked and hard banned out of the blue, without an Ainu so much as sending me a tell in the past month or two.
repost it as 'Judgment day'
July 4th came earlier this year, folks.
Wow, that was those were the most epic nukes I've ever seen.
my rap was almost finished :(
^ (OOC) Otoron: BAKLEN IS BACK
lol