I have this funny idea that people dont think before they consider new ideas. This kinda upsets me seing that the last chance the little guys have of getting back at the big guys who violate them is about to be torn apart. And this is only cause theese people want to know who contracts them. Well of cause we all do ;-) Lets just forget the side effects.
Date: 31. Dec, 2002, 16:16 By: Rhoads
Btw deb, what happened to the evil comunities case?Khamul was denied community status by the admin in MC case 1559. This was the only feedback I had as to why:
're 1559:
Though no feedback has been obtained, I have a suspicion that Ariadne's comments from December 2001 have at least a kernel of the reason:
Ariadne answered [Sat Dec 1 21:57:44 2001]:
... The issue of whether we need more MC reps (IMO we don't)
is another one we will have to discuss. The point of making
the war camp was to provide core services (shop, smiths, inn,
bar, healer, mailroom) to evil players who will get denied in
'good' towns where they kill.
Its pretty clear that the enhancements to Lorien were not considered
as a prior step to creating a new community. And though the interest
might have been there about a community in Dol Gulder, it is really
very premature to approve such an idea when a) the only community
in Dol Gulder is a guild, which already has the benefits of being a
community, and b) there are only a few rooms in Dol Gulder for the
new community to be a part of.'
Hopefully the MC will arrive at some sort of solution in MC 1866 soon and the admin will approve the plans to make the MC all OOC and elected by everyone in mud-wide approval voting. The MC is voting the last question in the case at present so there should be a proposal in place quite soon. That will eliminate the community-related bs with the MC.
Heehee, I still don't know where the mc room is :p
and you can prove you're a bad mc rep like last time
Does it really matter! If so I'll put more effort into finding my password and run again, like i did anything the first time i was mc :p
uh ok, I got 1 character that made it past 20 days
Hey Shachmir, screw you! I was the Edoras rep until a few weeks ago! Even though Elariel beat me out then suicided, making me rep by default... but still!
Its 20 days isn't it?
I think that the 25 days requirement sucks. Cause I don't have a long enough attention span to play one character for 25 days (and have yet to have a character older 25 days).
PPS: I'll go ahead and run in Havens go ahead and keep the idea of gridlocking the MC moving.
If anything should be done besides the aforementioned disbanding of the MC, I think that the MC should go totally OOC. That is, have it be as difficult to get onto the MC as it is to ainu. The Admin should interview candidates, check alts that sort of shit. These people can dictate from which side of the tracks most people are and can possibly instill some balance into the system. Instead of having the Edoras fags constantly cast retarded votes and whatever, backed by DolAmroth, Belegost and whatever other homosexual neighborhood there should be lines drawn.
As it stands, the MUD has basically been split into a bipartisan party system with your roleplayers on one side and your quote/unquote power players on the other. The newbie class would include people who haven't been here at least 2 years and don't know what the hell they're talking about. This way we can actually make sure both sides are being taken into account instead of 3 PPlayers making completely valid points, only to lose the vote because they don't dominate the majority of a system that was initially set in place to help the game... not polarize it to one end of the spectrum.
PS: MC does not deserve the right to be able to penalize players in anyway, I remember having to contract Ansel for starting some bullshit case against myself and I'm still waiting for him to revive for that contract to fill.
In response to MC rep activity, I don't believe that such activity restrictions are required. Since the MC is in theory run by typists and not characters, activity of a typist's MC character does not really reflect their overall activity on the mud.
Speaking as a typist, I have been on the MC for three terms over a few years, and I actually find that the best way to serve on the MC is to play with a character or two who isn't on the council, and leave your councilor character to almost exclusively read cases, make appends and discuss issues. That way you are still linked to the mud community and its actions through other characters, but you are able to focus on just MC with your council character.
That being said, newbies who age 25 days in their first six months of playing, campaign a lot, get elected, then get bored and log on for 15 minutes once a week during their term do not belong on the council. Going back to my post previous to this one about guild influence, I think typists on the MC should also have experienced more than one profession, alignment, mentality through the course of their experience here. Without seeing both sides of the picture, it is extremely difficult to determine the effects, changes, and abuses of any change. These one sided views are typically what is being criticized when the MC is called 'a bunch of newbies'. With the majority of the councilors knowing only one little slice of the mud, it does not make sense for them to assign arbitrary values to changes in the game.
The exclusion of Khamul and CirithUngol from the MC really is a load of shit... They should be combined with Dale and based in Cirith Ungol if anything under this shitty system... And there should be a homeless rep. That would be if this ridiculous system was to last, which it clearly should not.
Since it has been decided that guilds should be community based, and it has also been decided that the MC should be community based, what you have is a guild based MC. This leads to councilors being elected by a guild, not the entire community. These guild elected MC members then feel the need to represent solely their guild in the MC chambers. Councilors from guilds are under heavy pressure to make the OOC decisions of the MC so that those decisions will help their IC guild's goals. I find this to be one of the most detrimental aspects of the community system.
Um whining? We are just pointing out with substantial facts that the MC is fucking useless, and has only hindered arda with its flameboient ideas and regulations.
hey I got an idea
first we need some greedy mccouncilers (they are politicians after all, don't see that as being to much of a problem finding)
then we just need to start having campaign contribution scandals and shite
[QUOTE]The people who actively play all sides of this game do not waste time reading theese cases. People that have/had chars of every profession. People whe have/had chars in all types of guilds. Theese are the people who actually know what they are talking about.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree... Try to counts how many chars have gone inactivity because of MC?
:PHappy new year!
Btw deb, what happened to the evil comunities case?
What I find sillier is that the whiners are whining about a change that not only hasn't happened yet but hasn't even had the initial vote even POSTED yet.
As I said before, instead of complaining here, I strongly suggest that you take a moment to add your opinion to the MC case. I doubt that many of the current councilors read this page looking for your invaluable opinions ;)
On a side note, I think this could work. I think it should cost a minor fortune, at least as much as bribing to remove contracts. The anonymity of the contract system does get abused. Guildmates contract guildmates with alts. Small groups of players (or alts) repeatedly contract the same player over and over and over.
Too many people think that the contractor should be used to make someone so miserable that they quit playing the game and stop logging in instead of just saying 'There, you've paid for your sins' and letting it go. It's unhealthy and a bit pathetic that so fwe players can be that immature.
Btw, in case you were wondering, I allow my community to decide how I vote on initial votes unless it's a MC procedure vote. I can't speak for how the rest of the MC. I do my best to let the members of the Rivndell community be the ones making the decisions as their representative, even if I don't agree with them.
'a certain player category'... Hmm... sorry, but I just can't think of someone who haven't played this game for several years as of a 'player.'.
If you're playing, you gain either gold, exp or fines. Each of those three values is a number, and it's very easy to avoid tricks like 'give 10000 to friend', 'do steal all gold from friend,give all gold to friend' or '#1000 {do buy 1 gold item,sell item}'. I would propose to require at least a certain level of activity from every MCouncillor.
I am probably known to a few of you as a rather peaceful and docile feller, I hardly know how to place a contract, much less claim one ;)
I have to say that I find this change a bit silly, unless there's an extremely substantial monetary thing involved to reveal the person placing the contract.
Look at the situation you would have. If the contractor kept yapping the assassins would stop going to him. (kill him, and he would be replaced with a new popularity) But here they can't look elsewhere because they have to go through the monopoly npc contract system to keep their fines from getting unmanageable very fast.
So, it would be a silly scenario to be sure.
Well, my view on the whole thing is: The MC would be a more workable group if (and since it's ooc supposedly) players were placed there based on their playing style, and experience in Arda.
If the MC were a balance between Pkers, Non-pkers, RPers, Power Players, etc, even a balance of professions, if it were possible the whole thing would work better, in my opinion.
I've read through a number of the cases, and I've noted certain trends. People who spend a lot of time playerkilling will vote mainly only on pk-related cases, as where a RPers will vote mainly on Role Playing type cases, and people who don't playerkill often will vote for many changes in that direction of the MUD.
Hell, maybe even throw in a low level or two for the impact on lower level players caused by some of these changes.
I'm against this one btw. I very rarely place a contract, so it wouldn't have much effect on me, but contracts truly are a low level players only means of striking back at higher levels, and if you make their names available, they will have to worry about being struck down for it.
The only thing I MIGHT like to see is a limit put on the amount of contracts one player can place on a particular other player over a certain length of time. However, this would be gotten around by using a friend to put up the contracts, so there may not be any way to stop the harassing other than this: Don't piss me..er...I mean uh people off ;)
Anyways, for better or worse, most of the changes have gone into the game because of a majority of mc members in a certain player category.
My half cent.
-Jas
Blah, trying to avoid the MC was the main reason I changed to @CirithUngol...
But, thanks to the all-wise MCouncil if you want your plan to work, lots of people would need to change their mudmail adresses _today_.
While my character was alive, my mail was @Khamul. I chose that to be my community. There is no MC rep or even towncomm for Khamul. I'm not about to change my character's community in order to have an OOC voice in the design of the mud.
I have time, why not waste it?
Well, Kujo and Alorian are definitely wasting their time...
You guys are wasting your time, mark my words.
but gollum and smeagol did it :(
now now, dont talk to ourselves here, it just makes us look crazy
fdl, who said i was your alt?
oh yeah, im stoned. hi p
What are you talking about Alorian? You're my alt, remember, you cant have different opinions from me :P.
I have a lot more respect for Warrax after his post.
warrax,the first 2 lines were encouraging. then you wrote something incredibly long and winded complaining about how many mc cases there are and that you dont want to read them yourself. going on and on complaining about something that goes on and on. needless to say, i didnt bother reading the rest.
oh and the stupid unthematic way it pretends to be IC should change too.. just let the people with the most votes be on it, regardless of where they live.
Contrary to popular belief you can't change stuff about this game by playing. It doesnt matter how many people you 'pk' or how many times you 'rp' a dwarven bastard that talks like someone from the jerry springer show. The alternative to 'faggit politicians' are what we had before.. namely ainur that have to guess what the players want, and thats not easy because people dont want the same thing.
I dont care enough to read mc cases and well I dont expect things to be like I want to be either.
I just dont see how a system that let you just be an assassin and kill people (or be a thief and idle all day) and then in a magical way also find out in what direction you want the mud to change would work.
So well sure, if you dont want mortal input, remove the council, its probably too biased anyways. but dont come whining when no new ideas are implemented.
Myself I'd like the council too:
1) Stop dealing in player disputes
2) Stop meddling in guild issues
3) Act as an idea filter for changes to the mud.
I think we'd actually have to have the majority opinion..then we could just vote to disband the mc and be done with the whole thing once and for all. With 6 we could gridlock, but with a majority..that'd be a more permanent solution
The Mortal Council hears ideas from mortals, molds the ideas, and presents the ideas to //Valinor//. //Valinor// then votes on if the idea is acceptable. It's not up to the Mortal Council what ideas go through, //Valinor// does the voting. Well, the Powers. So, yeah.
The MCouncil is completely useless. The submission of ideas should go directly to valinor. Then again, some people who've made it that far have no business being there. Also, though I agree with Nogothrim, he's about as articulate as Baklen is when he's drunk.
if everyone cast a vote that meant something, besides hitting 1,2,3,4 just to get the stupid system message off your screen, then that would be a start =P
It could be done Raqtor...We are fairly united in our opinion...regardless of guild alignment. It actually wouldnt be too hard...I suggest Nogothrim for erebor, Korzan for MT, Arthlor for Dale, Warrax for wherever the hell hes registered..., and Hectan as well. All have historically been opposed to MCouncil interference. The trick is just organizing it so that each candidate is popular enough to capture that vote. It shouldnt be a problem if someone takes charge and organizes things with an iron hand.
Great Idea Hectan .. Do you think we could actually coordinate one such rep in almost every comunity? and only one?
If voted in this would surely show that we don't like the current MC ways.
Warrax said on Date: 30. Dec, 2002, 14:43:
'Do you know why the MC room protected from pks? It's a change that MC reps (in particular Deboraha) proposed to protect THEMSELVES from YOU.'
I can't find the case where it was discussed but the idea was actually proposed by Solomon or Variel. I was opposed to it because I said the MC shouldn't have any special priveleges. It wasn't considered a special privelege since any mortal could use the MC room.
Get your facts straight next time, please.
As for the 'no confidence' suggestion that Hectan proposed, I wrote to Solomon, the MC's Valinor Liaison, on November 9, 2002 requesting that he add the voting option 'I have no confidence in the Mortal Council'. He never replied to that mail so I do not know if he will do it. I still have the mail if you want to see it. All of the MC and GMs were CC'd a copy.
Rather than grind on and on about the idea and say the MC is making a bad decision, try actually speaking up to the MC in a mail or in the actual case. When all you do is bitch on a page that may or may not be read by the people making the decisions, you are giving tactic approval to what the MC does.
If that doesn't make sense, I'll say it clearer: By staying silent you give approval to whatever decisions the Council may make.
I have to say that I agree with Warrax 100%. The MC is the single most maleficial entity this game ever had.
I don't care if it is replaced with Korzan, with Aule, or with a bunch of drunken chipmunks; it needs to be either removed or heavily changed.
I've got an idea for anyone who shares Warrax's warranted opinion that the MC is useless. If you do not like the MC- the system, the reps, or both - in strategic east arda communities, I would suggest having a no confidence candidate. This candidate could put in their legendinfo that they are a no confidence candidate and thus pledges to vote down any changes proposed by other MC members. Since there are 16 MC seats and a 2/3 majority of those 16 is required to pass most decisions, a minimum of 6 seats must be won by the no confidence candidates in order to gridlock any MC changes.
The only way to beat the man, is to become the man...
paradoxical isn't it...
You people really need to learn that pKing someone is not the sole solution to the problem. Look at the Beorning/Udungul war (is that still going on btw?) Beornings kep killing and killing and killing and killing Udungul without making a dent in their resolve.
Those choices are only boring because you have a 1 dimensional view of the game, I'm sorry for you. Just because you have to become a politician doesn't mean you have to become a faggoty loser. In contrast most politicians are womanizing drunkards who get laid often...and not usually by their wives. How YOU conduct yourself is always YOUR choice, whether it be a faggoty politician or an agenda-having-proactive-member of the WHOLE mud community.
I apologize for posting, I know I'm in hibernation. Damn you Raqtor for posting this here!! :)
Ummm if you want to look at Mcouncil, here is a prime example, take a look at everyone who got a legend in the past couple years. Mcouncil is bullshit, we shouldn't have to have our voice heard, we shouldn't have to fight to keep something that doesn't need fixing. Its the people who complain like bitches that get things changed, we don't want to complain like bitches.
And Korzan isnt a 'pathetic, newbie loser faggot politician' but he DEFINIETLY had to act like one when he was in MC.
I'm sure Korzan would agree that the MC blows ass. Him and I have similar views on this matter, Theodrek. I just set higher standards for myself :).
faggets die! stupid politician losers. keel them all!
Mortal Council needs to die
Nogoth... 'pathetic newbie stuff' 'faggit politicians' 'you must become a loser' Hmm...where is Korzan nowadays, anyway? I'm sure he, as the former Represenative for the Minas Tirith Mortal Council seat would love to say something about this. Unless Korzan's just a 'pathetic, newbie loser faggot politician' too?
I have to add an agreement to Wasach here. When I got on MC, there was the case about decreasing the hunt skill. I think that if assassins had done something about it then instead of waiting for VALINOR to approve it, maybe they wouldn't be in this situation.
Btw. Don't complain about 40%. I forced myself to (OOC) vote for 40%, whereas I really wanted to IC vote for 60%. But 60% would be too unfair. I can seperate IC and OOC. Can you?
You missed one of Warrax's points Wasach. You are saying that people should become more involved in the MC and thier reps if they are dissapointed. Some people dont want to turn into faggit politicians, or have anything to do with politics, when they log on and roleplaying while being involved with MC is, by definition, impossible.
When you dont like your rep you said to, 'Campaign against that rep, sign up yourself, back another person...'. Dont you see how sad and boring those options are? Who would desicrate thier char doing pathetic newbie stuff like that? Pking them is the only true option and thats a nukable offense. So to fight MC you have to become a politican you must become a loser to fight the losers...its a waste of time
Keep in mind that Ainur on this mud are complete idiots. Killing MC members because they are in MC has gotten me nuked in the past. Plus, the more sucessful you are the better chance you have at deletion.
Don't just whine about the MC, join up and be a rep yourself...
Interaction between residents and their reps? Look at what Ansel HAD going on in Rivendell, look at Dol Amroth. If you don't feel that YOUR rep is representing you, then YOU have to do something about. Campaign against that rep, sign up yourself, back another person...
Granted Warrax made a nice argument but it's nothing different than anyone else who complains about the MC has said in the past but you still don't see people DOING, just talking and whining.
Replace the MC with a power that keeps personal gain aside? This can't be done 100% by anyone, we are only human.
Remember that the MC HEARS cases brought before them BY their fellow mortals. Valinor also doesn't implement everything the MC puts upto them. And if you don't like how the MC votes, then put your own fucking name on the goddamn sheet then. But for fucks sake stop bitching about how other people are sending this game down the crapper. THAT is your opinion and so far it seems to be the vast majority. You can claim it's because they are newbies, don't no shit about the game, etc etc but THEY are forging Arda into their vision of the game they want (and this will ALWAYS continue to change), you don't like it get more proactive.
As for that 40%, that's the fault of every one of you pKers who didn't say shit to your Reps when the case SAT around waiting for a vote to call and then even during the voting time...blame yourselves for letting it happen NOT the other people (who aren't powerplaying pker's) for making a change they saw as beneficial to the game.
If you're going to start killing MC members, start with that damn Adornas Rep! :)
(Haha. I'm so witty.)
i loved that post.
Why not place contract of 1k on X and you pay 3k. 2k for it being annonymous?
I can tell you Warrax bro, that was very interesting, and absolutly true.
Say it like it is, but remember, don't get banned for having your voice heard:)
Hey if you wanan get a case passed, what about that case about amateur skills :P
I thought this would be a PK of Raqtor killing one of those Power-Playing suckers... Oh well.
well said.. well said..
*love Warrax*
This is the first time I have actually heard anyone making any sense when talking about the MC. Nothing good ever came from this council .. their intentions may be fine. But they always end up deciding the wrong thing.
Most of theese people running our world are people who have used most of their time idling in bars and chatting on the comms. They never REALLY play the game. And if they ever did, most of them have only looked at one side of this game.
The people who actively play all sides of this game do not waste time reading theese cases. People that have/had chars of every profession. People whe have/had chars in all types of guilds. Theese are the people who actually know what they are talking about.
The MC should be replaced by a power who listens to all sides. And keeps personal gain asides.
We cant just sit back and let the biggest fools of arda deside our fate all the time.
Hey! I agree ... the votes are coming up, perhaps it was time to systematicly kill those listing themself as possible representatives!
*takes a deep breath*
I don't know where to start about this topic. Some of you know me as a long time enemy of the Mortal Council. I've always said that the MC is a piece of trash and does nothing but make the game worse. A bunch of unqualified people are making hasty decisions that are almost always irreversible and affect the game entirely. Think about this: When the combat code for t2t was first being designed, it took days upon days of running simulations to get just the 'right' formula in (Aule said this to me). Compare that to the 40% decrease in hunting ability that was propsed and implemented by MC. Where the hell did 40% come from? Someone just threw in that number and they voted on it. What was that change supposed to accomplish? It was supposed to decrease the number of gangbangs in the game. Did it accomplish that? No. What did it accomplish? Nothing. In fact the only difference I ever noticed was that I could now lose my target with 100 stalking (Ezekial in Mirkwood). Over the years I have witnessed terrible patterns in the way the mortal council works. Someone please tell me where the democracy in this is. Where's the campaiging to choose MC reps? Where's the interaction between reps and mortals. Why is Lukas who is an idiot making decisions about the Two Towers that will affect this game for years to come? I don't have the time and energy to read every single case in the mortal council, respond to all the idiotic ideas, and waste my time trying to hold back the inevitable flood of stupid changes. Perhaps Azarael could do that for a while. Maybe Korzan tried. Perhaps there are a few people in the game who are willing to spend hours upon hours of their RL time poring over meaningless ideas, anecdotes, reports, and complaints just so the game does not further lose its challenge. How many are these people? Not enough. How many are the unqualified newbies who get elected to the MC by random votes? Too many.
I ask you a few questions. What exactly is the Mortal Council? Is it an OOC body or is it IC? If it is OOC, then why are the representatives being chosen by the 'characters' in the game? Why are the reps divided between the regions of Arda? If in fact MC is an IC organization, then why does it propose ideas to change the internal workings of the game? Did a democratic republic rule Tolkien's Arda?
The whole idea of the Mortal Council is absurd. It started out as a way to make mortals deal with certain issues like corpselooting, harassment and alike so that the ainur would have more time to work on the game. But it looks as if over time it has grown into an unstoppable monster that is destroying everything we like about the game.
Let's examine the voting process for MC. Does anyone honestly think that the will of the MC represents the will of the mud? Give me a break! Democracy does not mean simply choosing from a list of people you didn't decide every three months.
Now you might tell me that you are aware there are problems and challenge me to find solutions instead of just whining. I do have some suggestions as to how this horrible plague can be cured. I believe that the Mortal Council as it is has to be disbanded. The system is just too arbitrary and ineffectual. What good has ever come out of MC? Nothing at all. If in fact the real purpose of MC is to lighten the workload of the ainur, then aren't all these MC ideas having an adverse effect? Reorganize MC. Reform it. Severely lower its power. Limit its domain. Do NOT allow it to propose changes to the game. Make your voice heard. The ainur don't know that you don't agree with these changes. The MC puts forward this crap in front of them and that's almost all the input they get from the people of Arda.
Another reason I disagree with the concept of MC is that in order for it to be an effectual organization there has to be a deeply-rooted political system set up in Arda. I find that unthematic and a real waste of time. I don't want to spend all of my login time talking to this MC rep, reading this case, voting on that change, etc. I want to grab a sword and kill someone. I'm a freaking assassin not a politician or a lawyer. Let's not bring beaurocracy into Arda. Some of us get enough of that IRL.
Do you remember the ERs? Remember how we were told that they were here to stay and that they would NEVER be taken out? But we made our voice heard and the ainur listened. Let's do the same thing for MC. Put a slogan in your legendinfo that you don't want MC anymore. WHINE! yes.. WHINE when you don't like a change. Don't hang your head down and mutter to your friends. Scream it out loud that you hate it all.And if all that doesn't work, there's another sure method. Kill all the freaking MC members until the ladder-climbers who want to show off that extra line in their legendinfo will realize it's not worth it. Do you know why the MC room protected from pks? It's a change that MC reps (in particular Deboraha) proposed to protect THEMSELVES from YOU. Find a way to kill the bastards, I assure you there are many. Kill all the freaking beaurocrats and low-lives.
*takes a break from packing up his kitchen*
That's not a bad idea Raqtor...
and please say what was confusing so I can state more clearly...
*goes back to packing up his kitchen*
Confusing Wasy ;-)
Anyway you don't have to be low level to be a weaker player.
What would be fun is to add an option when contracting to be able to give the contracter 2k extre to store another name. So you could blame others for it. Fun but insane ;-)
Well just make it so that whenever a person places a C with a char less that level 15 is put down as John or Jane Doe when the person puts forth the cash for the assassin to divulge the information...
Also, there should be a chance that the assassins gives the wrong name (intentionally) if the person tries to pay with too little or too much....or some method for the bribing player to get screwed out of the deal.
and the cost to bribe should not only be based on the amount of the C but also on the level of the bribing player.
Well Trempk ;-) .. 'most' people who actually actively play this game don't use valuable playing time to look at MC cases ;-) .. If you don't like me posting this here then just ignore it. I just think this is an pretty important change. And the active players do tent to visit here.
Redival says it nicely. But the problem is not only for Bob. But for all non Power Players. They are going to be scared contracting the stronger player because its no longer Anonumous. The stronger player might find out and get angry.
This only enpowers the strong players even more. The ones that arent afraid to get their hands dirty. and removes the last shread of power from the little ones.
It also puts me out of buisness. Since it will reduse the number of allready rare contracts.
Good thing that every vote the mc calls is passed!
If you care so much, why not append to the case? Oh, because redival already said your point. *waits for the 'poster is stupid' that everyone else gets*