Daen Hecil's village was being raided by 10 people, plus an 11th observer. I do what I can to fight them, alone, and they decide to turn it into a pkill 15 minutes later. Nice job, guys! You sure are clever!
I disagree with Rougan and Fimbu, however I aggree with Cogline. I also disagree with Sarys and agree with Fimbu.
I agree with Fimbu (though not on the Daddy Cogline thing).
I disagree with Rougan and Cogline both. And I miss Daddy Cogline.
Hmm, interesting discussion really.
I think people would tend to roleplay here a magnified version of what they keep inside, or in other words, what they want to be but can't in their real lives. So maybe, a public enemy might want to play the good one here to quench his/her feeling of guilt.
Or a socially depressed, or vulgarized person might try to avenge his/her hard feelings on others thru roleplaying the big bastard.
Yes, yes, I think so! ;)
About your guildmates maybe, but I don't think Cogline was just talking about KoDA; I don't think he specifically means *the* Knights of Dol Amroth by 'the noble knight' at the end of his post... but then again, I don't need to clarify Cogline's post for him.
Well, I, contrary to Cogline, have some amount of knowledge about my guildmates, and what they do irl; hence, it was not that hard for me to blow it off like that.
I don't know, I think what Cogline said was interesting, hence Deboraha's post on the Reality Lounge. I don't think you should blow it off like that.
Indeed, that is a very silly statement to make Cogline. I'd hope in the future you'd keep your comments on the game and not speculate on who we are and what we do IRL. If we wanted you to know, we'd share it with you.
As for your opinion of the members of the evil guild...a bit biased ain't it?
Nice fantasies about us, Cogline. They gave me a chuckle.
Well, Trempk, Wasach/Dwain -did- attack and hunt (with outside help, who I'll unfortunality mention also died) Azura.
I was once a great admirer of the Knights of dol Amroth. And still I sometimes romanticize about them and what they once stood for. Yet I was never a member. It seems to me, the typist behind jolly old Cogline, that there are some very disturbing and dark elements in the moral guilds.
When you think of DH or FRA or stwa or whatnot you might think they are cruel. They kill for fun. For pleasure. And surely, you think, there must be something morally tinted about inflicting and causing suffering to other beings for plain sport?
But I bring you this truth. The members of these organisations, I only named a few, are not evil men. From my longterm experience with this mud and its world I reached the conclusion that they are generally very good people. Their moral standards are high and they are not only just and fair but also rather open-minded: Embracing the ideals of the enlightenment when man learnt to stand on his own two feet and reason for himself.
Now hear me out. In moral guilds many of those noble characters are played by individuals who can not themselves be judged to live a very moral life outside the MUD. Surely exceptions can be found on both sides, but the fact remains that, contrary to popular perception, the vast majority of true evil lurks behind players in moral guilds. Mercenaries, hunters, members of fascist extreme parties, they all come to play the noble knight. What psychological condition that provokes this duality I do not know.
It is out there.
do something besides talk shit trempk. you're nothing.
Very close friend of DH? Is that what you're calling it now?
Erm. Him and ME.
No. But he's a very close friend of Daen Hecil, and he killed them as they attacked both him and he.
I thought I heard Wasach and Dwain were brutally cut in feet (btw, lame tactic, can be performed by any noob with enough healing) by Azura. Is Azura actually ... DH?
I'd rather be shot for a wolf than a dog. Guess that's why I spend so little time inside my Guildhall...
i didnt care then rhoads. stop trying to pick a fight
Why you never mentioned that when Ailin used to sign his name in the bottom? Looking for new things to criticize aren't we?
Well, he likes it I guess, nothing bad at it :P
Well sadly, we killed Dwain and you(Wasach) today...so I guess we'll find out just how fast you reach level zero after all.
um, we can see who posts the comment, what the hell is point of putting your name at the bottom?
Direkein anytime I've killed someone, I've been called a coward. The few times that an evil player has challenged a Knight to an 'honourable' duel...that Knight has been jumped by a whole bunch of said evil players buddies and killed outright. There are about 3 or 4 evil players that I would engage in a Duel of Honour with. I can't think of a single one that is in DH.
Direkein, you can go on believing that my actions were cowardly and trying to save as much face on here all you want. The fact is, we were out for dunlending blood. We were killing your NPC's and before we even got done with Tenzek's camp, your mates snuck past us (letting there kin die undefended) to pK Dreadson down at MT. The he preceded to shout (from back within the confines of your GH), taunting us with his death. No Direkein, he had it coming and if he didn't know it then, you all know it now. I don't recall ever having to clear who I kill or why I kill them with you. Unlike (what seems to be) the rest of Arda, I have no desire to be your lap dog. You people called the tune, kill or be killed. Sadly, killing us does not deter us...sadly for you.
Wasach Pathor
Swan Knight of Dol Amroth
Defender of the Realm
Wasach, thanks for the speech. I am so impressed by your words on Honor and what the Knights stand for. You guys are all like a tall, shining pillar of pure bullshit. The kill against Jonny and the kill against Caber were both done in the exact same fashion. Pretend to just be doing our regular RP with them, but then hunt them and see if we can get them by surprise.
When we kill you, we just pk you pure and simple. You have to pull this kind of crap.
Did I call you a pussy? Prolly not. I probably called the way you killed Caber and Jonny as being pussy bullshit.
I do want to call you a coward though, and to me this log is just that. The actions of cowards.
Maybe you guys should switch to CoDA.
I agree Wasach, but is it unreasonable to picture a moral guild with skilled players who stand up for themselves? Right now, whining seems to be the weapon of choice for moral guilds. Somehow, I can't picture this as behavior as fitting for the valiant opponents of Sauron. Unfortunately, as Wasach and Trempk pointed out, the game really isn't balanced. I played a moral character once long ago, and it was pretty tough to make large ammounts of gold. There isn't a Caras or Linhir for high level morals to make gold in.
Wow.
p.s.
To Answer Duniv: Morals can't play in the same manner as the DH or Durms, to many restrictions without anything to truly balance it back out again.
Feldon: Nice idea, I bet you wish you thought of it first. I know I was the first and I've been trying to get it implemented for years. One Ainur claimed that it is currently coded to be lowered...however, no one I know of has figured out how to do so. I know some people (myself included) who have paid a painfull price for trying.
*waves farewell*
Wasach
Some people say it is stupid of us to fight back against anyone when they take out their frustrations on us.
To all of you I say, go to The Halls of Mandos and stay there.
I don't care who you think you are or how good you think you are.
I won't skulk around or hide in my Guildhall, or suicide or hibernate just so I can avoid someone else delusions of grandeuer. You want a piece of me or of my Guild? Come and get it, I'll keep fighting back even if you bash me to level zero. You wanna mess with my Guildmates? That means I'm gonna mess with you.
All DH had to do was kill Cliffton and Korath for what they did to Jonny and no one would have even blinked an eye. Hell, Direkein and Korath both know how pissed I was when I heard about it. Sure I've never been the 'ideal' Knight but there were limits that I'd never breach. Instead you guys started taking it out on not just other members of the Guild but the weaker ones (for the most part). That is completely unacceptable.
Just because each of our Guildmembers doesn't have 10 or so alts to bring in also (and don't deny it because I've been around long enough to know who your alts and who are actually other players). I'm appalled at all the ass-kissing and dick sucking that goes on towards Daen Hecil. Especially by you Delgaur, I never thought you'd kowtow to anyone. I'm surprised to learn you are more angry with your Guildmates for defending themselves than you are with the DH for killing them and attacking them repeatedly.
Daen Hecil? The most powerfull guild in arda? Could be, could not be. Personally, I don't give a shit. I've sworn an Oath to abide by a Code and to defend Gondor and all of her peoples (characters and npc's) against the aggressions of those that would ravage her and leave her desolate. I mean to keep to my Oath, to whatever end should arrive.
You know me somewhat Direkein, better than anyone else in your Guild. You called me a pussy but you know the strength of the steel in me. If you don't, you'll soon find out and I am only one Knight. There are more from whence I come and we all abide by the same Oath.
Just remember, no matter what you do, no matter how this ends. It didn't have to be and we tried working it out first but you wouldn't have it.
See you in the Halls of Mandos.
Wasach Pathor
Swan Knight of Dol Amroth
Defender of the Realm
I think Feldon's idea kicks ass :)
Yea Rush , who the hell unbanned Streak? *ROTFL* ;)
use all the italics and bold you want streak. no one gives a damn what you think, no one has ever given a damn what you think, and no one will ever give a damn what you think. you're a newb who's died more times than i can count. my chars have been responsible for at least 4 of those :) you should spend less time playing grammer police and spend more time trying to get a fucking clue and learning how to play the game.
Don't actually implement this idea, but I'm going to share it anyway.
Ok, DH doesn't hunt outside tenzek's camp. But tenzek's camp is lockable (flag guard) so its not to hard to trap someone. Why not make the porticulus in DA castle dropable and you need to kill an NPC to raise it. That way, when random DH come to DA castle, KoDAs can do the same hunt inside the area shit as DH does. Well, other then the fact that they dont have assassins (details, whatever).
Don't actually implement this, but it'd be funny.
If you're playing the game to powerplay, it just makes sense to play the side that is easiest to powerplay. Its a lot harder to powerplay a moral who doesn't kill any morals than it is to powerplay an immoral/impartial who will kill nearly everything. Thats why immoral guilds have more powerplayers than moral guilds.
It's kind of odd to see how balance of players has shifted so far towards the evil side of the MUD. It's always been that way, but it seems to be true now more than ever. Just a thought, why isn't there a moral equivilant of Dacen Hael, Durmanhoth, or even Udungul? Powerplaying is nothing more than skilled playing, and there's no reason why moral players should shun it. Obviously I'm making broad generalizations here, so don't bother pointing out counter examples; I know they exist.
I wasn't thinking...I'll admit there are a few good things in your camp. Sturdy, for instance. Just ignore the first half of my last comment.
Grady, I mean in the way that there's nothing good exp or goldwise in your camp. Therefore, other then if someone doesn't like you and feels like pissing you off, there's nothing good in there. Whereas in Edoras you can get exp, and good gold. And as for Tenzek's camp, if you cleaned out Adornas you'd have a weapon! Actually, you'd have a bunch of weapons! :P
I don't want an RP council, but I'm tired of this bitching and whining about 'Oh, you said you were going to hunt there but you hunted there!' or 'Why are you hunting here'. God. So RP is no longer 'don't headbutt when dlsg and trigger to bandage', but it can be 'We'll hunt you here. We'll also hunt you here. You'll hunt us there. If you fall, you won't get back up.' so there isn't another bitch-session like there is right now.
Although it would be a great idea Grady :p
Theodrek, first off. A person could clean out Tenzek's camp and have almost an entire set of armour plus a weapon. And I'm sure Tenzek alone is worth at least 10k experience. So you're just absolutely wrong there.
Secondly, about our own personal camp. Well Theo, your guild isn't even raidable. See, when you come to our camp you're killing our guild employees and what not, just passing the guards and you're already in our domain. So the fact that there's nothing worthwhile there isn't too striking, its not like they're going to leave an NPC in there wielding a many-tailed whip or something.
I agree with Theodrek, we need another RP council! *giggle*
*blah*
just my two thoughts on Koda and DH:
1) The problem with Koda is that they got no damn assassins. Blame their GM for not accepting assassins cos they're dumb, cos when they RP they tend to get picked on cos they cant fight back... for those that go all out and kill Koda members i must say you all suck cos you only dare to pick on the lousier players esp when they think you're just role-playing. Koda is good because they are willing to RP and now many of the members think its unfair that they cant fight back so they stupidly take it out on DH.
2) DH is probably the best guild in Arda in terms of number of power players, there's no doubting that... to me at least. however all i see in the first few comments are people just trying to suck up to DH... Moral guilds dont suck, Calenril for one is not too bad especially since he is wanted by DH and other assassins. The problem why Moral guilds suck is prob because most experienced people prefer to be immoral because its much easier to earn gold and pkill. accessibility to mordor through Osgiliath is totally dependent on alignment and even entry into mordor by shelob is one heck of a bother to waste a whole lot of ep climbing up the stairs and then having to hack webs.
well to DH: a death is a death, so whats the big deal? i agree that if one of your members is killed revenge is necessary to uphold the honor of the guild but not a series of kills. One kill per offender would more than suffice and a series of kills is just picking on the n00bs trying to learn the game, just as i am.
Oh ya.. btw most DH pple i have talked to are really cool... =P
its really simple just dont mess with them and they're nice... =)
Streak's comments make me giggle and feel all warm inside. But now I have some of my own.
Grady...of course there is nothing of value in Edoras! I mean, only three guards with 100 gold each and 200 in equipment...no, four. And every other citizen is either holding 100 or so gold, or has some 30-40 gold equipment. And then there's the amount of exp Edoras holds. :P I used clean out Tenzek's camp and -maybe- get 1K exp, at most. The only thing your god damned camp is good for is for one piece of armour, and since morals can also get hauberk/carapace it's not -always- the morals who go to get it. As for your camp, it takes so much to kill your guardians that the same amount of people who killed your guardians all benefit nothing inside of your camp killing it's actual denizens.
And another thing I'd like to say...no, DH haven't -ever- hunted way outside of Tenzek's camp, or their village. You know, I remember reading a post by Redival which was a log...she had just been RPing with some DH in town, and she was low on HP. She ran back to guild, but Fimbu was waiting inside the entrance, and he charged her. She got inside with 2 HP. But that's RP, right? And I know there -are- other times people have been hunted to death by DH in 'RP'. Why don't we make some use of this big huge forum thing and decide what IS and is NOT RP, hunting terms, so everyone saves a lot of bitching and whining in the future?
There needs to be some sort of system in the comments section that lets you call a vote to ban someone from ever commenting again, and then lets everyone vote.
Or they could save themselves a lot of trouble and just ban Streak again instead.
Hey Nogothrim, how about this: Some of us were here when you were a newbie, talk shit now.
Who the hell unbanned Streak?
I'm obviously way over your heads here, so I'll try to put this into your parlance.
**Dumbass kids who can't spell start here:**
Y DONT U LITLE PREPUBSCENTS POST SOMATHNG R3L3VANT 2 TEH LOG OR DA CONVARSATION INSTEAD OF TAKNG OUT UR ANGST ON DA FIRST AVALEABLE TARG3T HM
?!??! OMG WTF
**Script Kiddies start here:**
Why d0n't y0u l1ttl3 pr3pub3sc3nts p0st s0m3th1ng r3l3v4nt t0 th3 l0g 0r th3 c0nv3rs4t10n, 1nst34d 0f t4k1ng 0ut y0ur 4ngst 0n th3 f1rst 4v41l4bl3 t4rg3t, hmm?
**Elite, l33t and such start here:**
//|-|% P0|\|'7 %05 #177#3 p.3p5_3$(3|\|7$ p0$7 $0|/|37|-|1|\|9 .3#3/4|\|7 70 7|-|3 #09 0. 7|-|3 (0|\|/3.$4710|\|, 1|\|$734P 0 74|{1|\|9 057 %05. 4|\|9$7 0|\| 7|-|3 1.$7 4/41#4_#3 74.937, |-||/||/|?
**English:**
Why don't you little prepubescents post something relevant to the log or the conversation, instead of taking out your angst on the first available target, hmm?
I also think its great that Canther(the typist) gets the praise he deserves. He championed the thieves guild as well as created the Knights of dol amroth. Him and Rathmar both had chars in Koda throughout thier clan and early guild days. He wrote their entire theme from behind the lines. And OMG rougan....Canther created your guild and i promise you, he would be disgusted. But thats prolly because Canther was a moron who didnt understand how true noobs react when they are approached by opposition.
Oh man, Bakal, everyone knows that flasd is dumb. I just cant believe Deboraha called me out. Its amazing to have been around since the dawn of history and have some fucking noobler talk some shit.
You have to see blade, lotraz, caber, and all these fags who have opinions... they used to be complete helpless nooblers. But they learned and they joined together over the years. they have the experience and the ability to do truly great and historic things. But they dont. They are too freaking boring.
All i'm saying is eery person involved in that kill is going to die a few times. That was low and cheap. And yeah i'm with my boy's Intulor and Tantor, Moral Guilds suck balls.
We all know Streak is a total hack. Shut the fuck up. Pointing out RHoads failure to form a paragraph is frivolous, as well as many of your other digressions into grammar. Countless times your own grammatical shortcomings have been revealed, so next time I need an an authority on the subject I NOT NEED U. ha. blow me.
Flasd... is dumb.
LEts declare arda wide warfare, and end this bullshit, lets make the game fun again... Lets give ourselves a reason to rp, moral guilds verse immoral guilds, allies verse enemies. If you whiners want to act like little bitches, lets give you a reason! Who's in?
Bah. Who let this fuck back into the picture?
Juveniles.
//All of you bitches know deep down inside this was just a very low sneak pk under the disguise of an RP battle.// **Mizrahi**
You're one to talk?? You lost. Sure, you fought the good fight and all that jazz, but YOU LOST. Deal with it, and quit crying.
//the instant we hunt in rp outside of tenzek's camp, it ceases to be rp. when other guilds hunt outside of their respective rp areas, we should just sit back and accept that as rp? shut he hell up rhoads.// **Intulor**
Ooook? That made no sense. Pay more attention to Mrs. Schnartung in English class, you dolt.
//*pats KoDA on the back* u can give up ur morals and sink 'low like DH' u guys rock ass dude. oh wait u give the word Knights a bad name.// **Tantor**
You also need to pay more attention to Mrs Schnartung, dimwit.
Rhoads, take heed of the following.
//par?a?graph ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-grf)
n.
A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.
A mark ( ? ) used to indicate where a new paragraph should begin or to serve as a reference mark.
A brief article, notice, or announcement, as in a newspaper.//
We should all just go make a happy gangbang gay sex and be fine about it!
We could just remove Tenzek's camp so that there's no MSM, sturdy armour, and dunlending shield if you fucking people would like that. I mean shit hell, everyone else protects completely useless things. Then you give one of the most visited camps to a guild and tell the defend it, what did you think was going to happen? Oh, and for all the of the people that think its a great idea to just report us and come back and get the sturdy armour and or whatever, see the above log of Eofor dying.
ok first i personaly dont belive in hunting in rp as your sopose to be protecting not leaveing your wonded to die at someone elses hand in your absence but thats not the point just my opoinin. and most the morals are not assassins as they dont log on to kill people and hunting is manly just a pk tool so hunting is not a viable option for morals.
rp can be very fun if BOTH sides AGREE to some terms but it has to be BOTH SIDES not one side makeing all the rules and everone else has to fallow suit and play by there rules. if the DH want to hunt and all the moral guilds dont agree then we simply dont play with them and ignore them when they attack or citys just as we do for people that dont want to rp and when you go to get sturdy armour bring somone with you and when they attack just leave and go report them asap then go right back and finish tenzek if they attack again then report again and so one
anyway what im trying to say is rp is about fun the game is about fun and if we dont all agree to some simple rules we just choose not to play with them its that simple...
LOL I love all the people trying to say what the moral pukes did is exactly what DH does all the time. In fact, no, we just hunt in our camp. Our incredibly small camp. And we make it perfectly clear that is our intention. So either be very weary when you step inside our camp, or simply don't come at all.
I chuckle when I imagine the faces of these highly unskilled players getting so mad that they can't take down one lone DH, so they purposefully decide to hunt and kill him as he leaves to heal. Does DH catch people in the plains as they're leaving the camp and hunt them to their death? Nope. There have been rare instances where the hunter has failed to hunt off as the invader is leaving the camp (of which I'm guilty on one occasion), but never do I sit in the plains and wait for somebody leaving so I can hunt them. Nor do any of our guild members.
So if their argument is that DH supposedly plays like this all the time, and now the morals are going to be doing it back to us, then the new 'RP' rules are we can hunt and kill wherever and whenever we want now? Wow, that's a pretty nifty system. Hats off to the Moral Trinity for their inception of this new program.
KoDA can't hunt, they have no assassins.
Intulor said that if they hunt outside Tenzek's camp, it's not RP anymore. So I've seen DH hunt WAY out of Tenzek's camp. So if that happens, report the people who attacked you.
If anyone doesn't like DH attacking them, just report them EVERY time they attack you, they catch on quick. They wont attack you anymore, most likely.
I dunno, figure something out for yourselves.
See, I don't get this...
DH want to hunt in RP, which is perfectly fine and alright.
They want to hunt outside Tenzek's camp, fine.
They want to hunt all the way to Edoras, BANG. Just lock them up in a room with your friends waiting there and kill them..it's their fault for hunting you there since they stated they wouldn't.
They want to trap you in Tenzek's camp and hunt you in there, FINE. Have a party of your friends wait for your word to come in, and then kill them. They want to kill me because I entered the camp, well I want to kill them for being in my way, so i'll get my friends to hunt them for me while in the camp.
There is NOTHING at all wrong with the way DH RP, you guys are just not using it to your side. In my opinion, BkD should hunt in Erebor, Amruin should hunt in Edoras, VC should hunt in Lothlorien, KoDA should hunt in the castle, blah blah. It's a good way of RP.
-Agrun
I almost can't believe I read all this.
Here's what I got out of this.
Caber died. Not because of RP, but because the people who killed him wanted him to die. I think part of the point of this log is to say:
'Hey, you always complain that we hunt and attack and try to make you dead and don't bandage, but we warn you ahead of time thats the case. Then, you turn around and do the same, but don't give the warning that we at least give you and always have given you. That sorta sucks. It's on, now.'
Though, maybe without that last part, because it sounds kind of lame.
That's what I thought this was about, anyway, if you dare read into things beyond the simple fact that someone died and other someones were responsible.
I think warning is silly, but at least better than all the bandaging and 'no do this' pages and pages of rules I've seen in 'treaty' form.
If death didn't hurt so much, would there be less 'concern/wussiness' about it all? Or would all that stuff still be there, even if it didn't suck as much to die to a player?
Just to clarify, I'm not calling Caber or DH hypocrits. I'm saying that they seem to have won round the morals to their 'more realistic' style of RP. Which should be a cause for celebration, shouldn't it?
It's fucking hilarious to see everyone completely ignoring what we said. No, sorry guys. Caber is not being a hypocrite. You just can't spin it that way :P Stop trying, dammit!
And you give mankind a bad name, Tantor.
The morals went to the DH camp for some dunlending blood.
They got dunlending blood in the end. Good on them for going after their goals.
Caber was in Edoras. He is a self-proclaimed enemy of Edoras.
What those guys did is what DH has been promoting since their inception. I've skipped most comments here, but I -think- I saw something about someone asking for warning about them hunting, and where they would hunt. Fimbu I think it was. Well, Caber was in Edoras. They hunted him in Edoras. Caber was in Enemy land. It's not like they started hunting him in Minas Tirith. I dunno if they would have if he had been there and not Edoras, but we can only go off the evidence that lies before us in the log.
All DH should be prepared to have a moral RP party to suddenly turn into a PK party, in a perfect Arda. Whether Amruin step up to the gauntlets and pull all their strings to make Edoras the evil equivalent of the DH village in terms of dangerousness, is to be seen. It would sure be fun if they did though.
Amruin killed a heretic. Theoden is proud of you. He's now stood in the Stonewain Valley after hearing the news and thinking to himself that his City is in safe hands in his absence.
*pats KoDA on the back* u can give up ur morals and sink 'low like DH' u guys rock ass dude. oh wait u give the word Knights a bad name.
Is it just me, or does it seem as if all parties involved are just scratching at some justification for what happened? You just can't believe you did something that the people you loath do.
Well, to all involved. Here in DH we do NOT WANT people entering our camp. So to be sure, we started hunting people to the limits of our camps and inside for circa 5 months ao. We were always clear in the fact that we'd hunt you in our camp, we would tell you. We're supposed to be sneaky dunlendings who have been wronged out of our lands, but for the sake of gameplay we still warn you.
Meanwhilst, a contraband of 3 different guilds and a random assassin are fighting a person in supposed RP (Yeah yeah, you'll say that they never admonished that fact. If that were the case, why did they all attack him at his OWN guild.) and decided to hunt him to his death. Thusly, no one wants to admit wrongdoing on the morals behalf. Everyone just keeps pointing fingers saying that DH started it. Well, I can't recall a time that DH ever RP'd protecting Udungul's camp and ended up hunting people and killing them. Nope, don't recall that ever, so to say that DH started this trend is an outright lie. Furthermore, if all parties involved want to claim that it wasn't RP and was just PK, then that's cool, say that more so we can be sure why we're all going to be killing you from now.
There is no 'RP zone'. For convenience and courtesy's sake Daen Hecil has outlined a 'hunt-zone' for themselves. KoDA has never alerted us that they were going to hunt.
Heh you people are all morons. How long will it take you to realize that what you think isn't what everyone else thinks? All these fucking opinions amount to shit, so why don't we just keep them all to ourselves? Grow the hell up and quit trying to justify your way of RP to people who refuse to abide it.
Ok, first of all, throughout the whole log, when the players were in combat, I don't see any of them also in combat with any NPCs. Therefore, you can't really say that KoDA, etc was defending edoras, they were defending their friends. They attacked the Daen Hecil camp and went back to edoras to celebrate or something. Then Caber comes after the fight is over and starts trying to kill people with charges or something. Why would caber go to edoras if he wasn't going there to pk someone? He didnt attack any NPCs?
Now, another thing is that they never left rohan. DH follows me out of edoras to my GH every time I am on the run from them after defending there. Now how much is too far out of the 'rp zone' and what is the 'rp zone?' Is it edoras, or rohan? Tenzek's, DH camp? or Dunland? I once fought Fimbu all over rohan up by tenzek's camp. Now neither of us could hunt, so thats a little different. I wasn't there though, so i could be wrong about all that, just thought i'd look at it from an angle few would think of.
To sum up: If you wanna start hunting in RP combat, go right ahead, but tell us when you do and where you'll do it. If KoDA want me to start hunting them every time I fight them in DA (Which I never do), or in MT, then ok. But I don't do that. I hunt in dunlending camp.
I do not make comments no more because I think it is pointless. Yet, some of you are missing the point. I find it rather funny and ironic. So let me put it in lamer terms for you.
You fuck with my area of domain... You die.
You fuck with my friends.... You die
You fuck with my pride or honor.. You die
It is simple as that. DH are not here to satisify your sense of rp. They are some badass dunelendings up to no good. If you do not like the way they PLAY or rp their part. Then call up arms (Like Aragorn, Luthien, Gandalf and so many others) and bring the war to their doorstep. So stop whining, stop acting like babies and making lame ass comments about what not and what to do. Grab a weapon and make your enemies feel your fucking wraith. Comprenda?
Commnents are overrated
I'm surprised it took so long for Caber to bite the dust. If you see an enemy, you don't pet it, you kill it.
I think you're all dumb/silly/stupid. Relax.
All these comments has not, and will not lead to anything.
This was kinda funny.
Miz, Im telling you not to whine when that what you guys started finally comes and hits you, and you are telling me not to whine.
And everyone, don't overestimate DH. They can be eliminated if some day we decide to put in as much time and resources to this game as they did and do, but I hope that will never happen on my behalf.
But sadly, I seem to have got addicted, too. Hope these hibernations solve it out.
Who is right? Who is wrong? The answer is, both sides are right and also wrong at the same time, think about it. Everyone is allowed to have diferent views of something I believe, it would be best if everyone respected everyone`s opnions but that is possibly too much to ask right?
Waste,
BKD was killing to defend Erebor years ago, this isn't exactly a new idea or a new addition to the game.
And about DH being bored of our RP, we're not bored of it, we do it. We've said this a thousand times, but you obviously still don't get it. Why would we let someone who's killing our kind(Tenzek) live? It makes no sense to just run them off. The only difference between us is that if you roleplay with us you won't live to roleplay another day. If you keep coming back, we'll keep killing you. Go level up before you fuck with us again because we've got no problem killing you again.
So you guys can hold hands and go walk your baby nuts around and say we don't roleplay, but how is it roleplay to bandage someone and give them a chance to kill you later?
I don't have time to read this comment thread, but I thought of something funny while I was at work. These people killed me, as far as I know, because we've been killing KoDA a bunch (though I personally haven't been involved in killing a single KoDA). And do you know why we've been doing it? Because they pkilled Jonny. And how did they do it? Funny enough, the same way they did it to me. Jonny was RPing with them in Dol Amroth, and suddenly when he left to heal, they were following him. I believe Kashmirny claims to have not been able to type 'hunt off' quickly enough or something, though I could be wrong. From glancing over the comments, I believe that most of you are too inexperience with pkilling to understand the difference between (a) us pkilling someone and (b) KoDA hunting someone out of an RP zone. Daen Hecil may kill people, but we make our intentions very clear. When you leave our camp, combat stops. I know, some people have screwed up in the past, but we stick to that philosophy in 99.9% of all cases. In the case of the KoDA, they have people believing that they're just roleplaying with you or something, until you go to heal, and then you're fucked. The problem, as I see it, is that KoDA and their friends don't understand playerkilling enough to even see where these two situations differ. As for Kashmirny, she died one time for hunting Jonny, and one time because people needed a KoDA-loving target to get revenge upon. And Beeenz, Deboraha? Why bring him up? His bashers were mostly Udungul, and half of them got nuked. How is that ammunition against Daen Hecil?
Okay, my lunch break is about over. Bye!
What's so unrealistic about lag? You have any idea what I have to connect to the internet with? :P
With all due respect, I haven't heard nearly as many complaints about our members hunting other people as you all make it sound like. Not from you, not from anyone. Stop being such a pain if someone happens to follow you through several rooms in the plains by accident, or even until Edoras (You'd be surprised how close that is to Tenzek's camp in terms of combat and lag :P).
And does Alpizar claim it was lag? Sorry, I find that hard to believe, especially with those 4 angry strawheads in the party who seemed to have known what they were doing from the moment they joined the party. He shouldn't have been hunting us in Edoras to begin with, without the proper warning, as I already explained so thoroughly.
but i have a contract :p
no cheating though - not unless i get a 'zap' button too! ;)
I can't. I'm busy working on contracts at the moment.
Don't go hibernating though, Delgaur, I can beat on you when I'm done ;)
Draug should make himself a maxed mortal assassin and just beat on us all :p
Yes, I don`t get surprized by it, simply cause I know what to expect from mey enemies. PP guys are always the first to complain (or whine) about anything that get`s changed that makes it somehow worse for them, even if it is more real so by getting back to the hunt thin, we should stick to the point that there is a limit between roleplay and playability. I remember a LOT of people whining about the light changes even thou now it is more real and it acts more like in a work of Tolkien :)
And about DH players beeing better in gameplay, yes, that is absolutely true and I have no doubts about it, I don`t know why you even think we (or I am) taking that in consideration.
Another important thing to notice is that RP should not be considerated JUST combat, it is a lot more than that and in that quesite I do believe most people in DH (and in all guilds) are lacking, although there are exceptions for sure.
Why do you people consider everything that goes agains`t your ideas as whining? It is not like that, otherwise, every discussion here is simply whining from both sides.
Rhoads
'If you'd like to continue and say that Alpizar only wanted to hunt Caber out of Edoras.'
you own words Miz - Lag? the amout of times i have heard that excuse is unreal - and no i dont agree alipizar should have hunted. I Understand why, since his guild mate died, but - that just makes him as bad as they are. *shrug*
'From beornings who apperently found it apropriate to act defenders of Edoras? '
Do not fear - words will be had for helping them Strawheads!, thats what you call them right? :p
oh, and i will comment on what i want, when i want.
you dont have to listen, Intulor :p
Wow.
Couple things. I really think most of you construed the point of this log being put up. It wasn't to say all morals are gay or any of that stuff. It was to point out, noone is a saint so don't bitch when we RP hunt you to death. Deboraha, I thought you were really cool until i found out from a anonymous friend who tried to kill you, that all you do is sit in citadel (unattackable room), guild or have a friend grab your C, so I don't think your comments can be applied very well. I don't mean that as an insult cause I remember you being really cool but if your gonna sit in your guild or whatever and never play and have fun outside with others I can't see a right to comments but thats my opinion. It is good to have some struggle in your lives people. Have some fun with this, maybe make a deal with DH and your guild so that if they hunt you past the areas they will agree to bandage or something only if you leave the area completely. Things like that. DH are simply more agressive players than most other guilds, and that is generally converted to them being assholes and so on. So try not to confuse agressiveness with people who are complete dicks (like newbie killers) out to ruin some decent dudes day.
koda koda koda. No comment the old ones were cool once a pon a time. All i can say is, if i can find enough Knights around to join my clan i might make, I think will make one of real knights.(and yeah I think i have been a knight longer than koda have been a guild but i could be wrong)
Anyways this is really long so all you guys have a great day and do something fun on the mud for me.
Pounder
Nope, not me. Though it would be unfair of me to say that I didn't like her at that time. But then again, that was before I found out what a...
Nah.
Actually Mizrahi, Deb applied for the _FRA_ about a year ago, and after several of us, (perhaps even you?) asked her to. Details, details, but fair should be fair.
EEK! A lot of new comments while I was writing, I will read and asnwer
to them when I get back later.
Intulor, you are no angel :)
The thing is, it is not about sitting back and doing nothing, my
point is, DH started it (yes, even hunting outside), so in MY opinion
you people shouldnt get as half as pissed as you people get when it
happens to you, so there goes your point my friend. It is not about
being tough, but about respect. Sinceraly I am so used to it that
I can barely even bother to care about it anymore, although
intelligent discussion is always welcome I believe :)
Anyway, what is so wrong for X to get an alt todo something that his
main cannot? Well, I do not support it, but believe me, you and a lot
of other people shouldnt even be allowed to think about complaining
about it, wasan`t Grady who once said people should fuck off and stop
whining about other people using alts? Well, either change the way
people play right now or do it as Grady :)
Rhoads
And ofcourse, saying 'lalalalala' and typing in capital letters reflects on the credibility of all of you. Heh.
Blah.
Atleast try to stick to facts, Rhoads. It's not like you get surprised again and again with every new time you get hunted by us in our village or in Tenzek's camp. We made it clear to all of the moral guilds what our hunting boundries are. I don't see anything wrong with hunting you out of our camps. I don't see how that ain't RP. Your idea of RP is the one that doesn't get you hurt. But not the one that would exist in Tolkien. If any of you, such as Rougan, want to be rectal pains, and complain about how we constantly end up hunting out of the camps, then sure. But deep down inside, you know that these occasions are not as abundant as your whining would make them seem, and even rarer are the times that the motive behind those occurances are to kill someone. (Most of the times it happens to me for example, is just lag. Lots of lag.)
Despite your desire to slander us because we're so much damn better than you are, try remaining practical. I personally am all for Amruin hunting their offenders out of Edoras. For fucks sake, even the defenders of Esgaroth, the MT battlement guards, and your very own DA guards do it, and not only those 'evil bastardly dishonorable blah blah blah' DH members and Barad Dur orcs.
Earlier on the comm, or maybe one of the logs, I saw either an Amruin or a KoDA making a comment about 'Nobody said that they were rping with Caber'. I think that comment says it all. Rougan, Rhoads, Delgaur, and all the parties involved, please, don't play smallheaded and just admit that non of you, deep down inside, believe that Alpizar was going to hunt off as Caber would have left Edoras. You know that Caber went down there to fight that party out of the thought that it'll remain strictly as a part of the mutual definition we have for RP. Wasach can put all sorts of question marks around his double standards. If you'd like to continue and say that Alpizar only wanted to hunt Caber out of Edoras, then sure. But you're lying to yourself before you're even lying to me. And hey, even if he did, would be nice to get a proper warning. How many times have we officially inform that we hunt in our areas? Enough. Did we ever get a mutual warning from KoDA? No. From Amruin? No. From beornings who apperently found it apropriate to act defenders of Edoras? No.
All of you bitches know deep down inside this was just a very low sneak pk under the disguise of an RP battle. Sure, we deliberately kill you all as well(Which is nothing compared to what you're about to be getting). But we don't play pretend games. We hit you anywhere, we hit you hard, and I'm pretty sure non of out victims got the slightest clue that any of those were attempts to RP Conservative Arda style. We don't however, get 10 men to sit in our village, wait for someone to attack an npc, only to attack him, and then once he wants to leave and go to heal, surprise hunt him.
And Deboraha, our social texture can't possibly be that bad. Afterall, we rejected your applications to it enough times in the last half year.
Mizrahi.
I just wanna say that im completly agree with Dwain... and that 'DH DESERVE TO DIE UNTIL THEY LEARN HOW TO RP'... If you hunt wherever you want to... expect the same from every body... i guess it is time to every guild in Arda hits DH many times... DH makes that T2T sucks sometimes... like killing Drcayngel twice without purpose (it was two contract...? please dont make me laugh, Beornings is full of assassins and nobody there saw any contract of Drcayngel), and kill Horuss for telling you some truths, or kill Beeenz many, many times until he gets suicided... is this the way you wanna play? THEN YOU MUST EXPECT THE SAME THING FROM EVERYBODY... AND EVERYBODY IN T2T MUST GIVE YOU THE SAME TREATMENT...
Off the top of my head one name quickly comes to mind: Beeenz, though he invited the bashing without a doubt. The only thing that stopped the pkilling was the fact that he suicided.
Kashmirny has now died twice to the Daen Hecil and has been told that it will be more, perhaps an indefinite number. Where does it end?
I can't count how many times the DH has been responsible for the pk's of Feris, Korath, Rougan and other KoDA members. Where do you draw the line, Intulor?
thanks dwain. i'll make sure i create an assassin alt just to hunt for DH and kill things for them that are on their kill restriction list like you do for koda. will that make us better rp'ers?
OMG, you guys are pathetic. DH, you run around this person pissed me off, that one, lalalalala, but when someone goes back and does the same to you's, you guys cry like lil babies. Its like you guys say, we wanted him dead so they killed em. Your a bunch of MONGALO's DH!!!
the instant we hunt in rp outside of tenzek's camp, it ceases to be rp. when other guilds hunt outside of their respective rp areas, we should just sit back and accept that as rp? shut he hell up rhoads.
waste: your history dictates that you don't know jack shit about rp.
delgaur: why do you consistently stick your nose in our business, like you're some kind of authority on the subject?
deboraha: i told you last night on the mud that we DON'T level bash people. why is it so hard for you fucking understand that? the last time you had anything to do with this guild was 4 years ago, why the hell do you think you know anything about it now?
Nogo's earnt the right to speak, Deb.
dam, you guys are so much better with words than me. - you just re-wrote what i was trying to say deb/rhoads :p
I will just add a few comments to what I have read so far. First, what the hell
the hell is the matter with you Dudu? KoDA HUNTED IN RP A DH OH NO
SHIT THEY ARE SO FRICKIN LAME, HUNTING IN RP IS LAME LAME LAME DH
SHOULD BASH THEM TILL THEY REACH LEVEL 1 IF POSSIBLE! That was
possibly one of the most ignorant comments I have read in a while,
do I need to remind you that the DH came up with this new 'trend' of
hunting in RP combat? Sinceraly, if the hunt people they should
expect to be hunted as well. And dont even give me that crap about
hunting only inside the area and 'a little furter' because I can say
for personal experience it simply dosen`t work like that (I can think
of more than one ocasion that I have been hunted from Tenzek to my
guild ). It is funny how people bash down KoDA for doing it, possibly
it is only okay when the cool guys do it :(. You can say KoDA is
agains`t it, well yes they are, so are we and VC if I am not mistaken
but what do you want people todo? Ok, they don`t like it but people
will do it to them anyway. It dosen`t surprize me at all that soon or
later it happened that a DH got hunted and killed in RP combat, sucks
that it had to be Jonny (I believe he was one of the few DH that
was against hunting in RP combat). And you people out there, this
sucking up amazes me :P specialy from other evil guilds, in fact, it
makes me laugh :P, if I am not mistaken I remember some DH killing
a CoU or two not very long ago and some people in there aparently
preffer to swallow their pride and support them in whatever they do,
you guys make me laugh :)
Anyway, DH is possibly the best PK guild that there is in this game
so I am not really surprized to see how things are turning and will
eventualy turn out.
Btw, sorry if the formatation comes out bizzare but I am using a
text based web browser so things don`t work as fine as they work
on a regular web browser :)
Rhoads
Nogothrim, Lord of Inanities said:
'Well, its hard for me Rougan, I knew Canther who actually came up with the idea KoDA... (blatherblatherblather)... Thats why really you are a disgrace... '
Normally I ignore Nogothrim because the task of enlightening Nogothrim is far too alike the punishment of Sisyphus, an utterly pointless effort, however his prattle has reached the point where a response is warranted.
I remember when the KoDA came about. I remember their original clan and founding members. I've tipped back a few beers (and jello shots) with some of them IRL and talked about the KoDA as a clan and as a guild. To imply that Canther would want them continue in the same fashion and allow themselves to become a barrel of fish for Daen Hecil- or any guild's members- just shows why you are the Lord of Inanities. Put a cork in it your Worship.
The problem is, and this applies to all the moral guilds because they are all RP oriented, that to fight back on a level with the Daen Hecil means you have to put aside RP because that will always be used against you as a weapon. The Daen Hecil live with no restrictions save those forced on them with code by the admin.
I think the moral guilds have to make a choice: put aside their RP and play the game at the level of the Daen Hecil and their like and maybe win the war but lose something else in the process, or stop their involvement with the DH. Stop killing in Tenzek's camp. Stop killing in the DH village. Stop getting into the pissing contests with their members. Break them when they hunt and report when they attack.
In essence, the Daen Hecil are obviously bored and spoiling for a fight. The guild has no substance of RP or social environment on its own to keep members amused and involved, so they look to pick the pk 'I'm gonna kill you to level 3' wars with any guild they think will take up the gauntlet. The moral guilds can either choose to pick up that gauntlet or just stop playing the DH's game.
lol, please please let there be a moral vs dh war, i want to kill morals!!! lol :P
Caber: Man you got guts. You took on what was sure to be out numbering you. Hell I wouldn't have done that =P Nice man.
Stupid Knights who hunted: It says in the RP treaty that there should be NO hunting during RP battles. I know DH isn't apart of the treaty but where is the honour in hunting down and slaying a man. Its just lame. DH should kill you all! *Muhahahahahaha!
We are not whining Grady.
Oh by the way, before I hear any bitching as to why we shouldn't retaliate against the Amruin. If you'll notice in the log, its an Amruin that headbutted Caber at 7 HP. This is all, have a nice day!
Just killed Alpizar's friend Tingol and an Amruin. Now there's no double standard, we'll just kill each other. :P
I surprizes me people actualy did it. Anyway, what surprizes me most is the double standards most people in this game seem to have. Whine or be whined? Is that a new trend? Well, what do I know, I am a moral guild faggit who knows nothing about this game and talk shit but have no skills to back my crap up, gosh, I suck.
sorry, got off topic there - nice log! good read!
Morals win a war vrs DH?
personaly, as much as i hate to say it - Morals would crash and burn.
Sure, they would out number them, and get a good few 5 man kills.
But DH members do consisit of many many hardcore power players, whos goal on the mud is to kill as many people as possible - carry the best EQ - and forfill there egos and give them selfs a hard on.
Who do the morals have? possible ONE good pkiller in each, and even that is arguable. - the players and members of DH are far superior in the ways of Player kill - becuase it is the way they play.
The Morlas on the other hand, i guess you could say, are stuck on the RP side of things, and are to nice nice.
RP vs RP - Theme vs Theme, morals for the most part will win hands down. - but due to the nature and differenct styles ok players on each side, it makes a no win situation.
I know i for one, as leader of Beornings would stand no chance, 90% of my member are inactive with exams and stuff.
Morals try and 'kick them in the head' would just result in a lot os sucideds and level bashed players.
And as waste puts it, times change - Respectful RP combat is in the past - todays mudders appear to be much younger, irational, imature and just want to kill kill kill.
ok, thats my rant done :p
Back to work for me :(
Direkein, I think i need to make it clear what i intended with my post. I did not say I did not like the style of DH, i think its a new addition to the game that needs adjustment to. Do i think that it is a good idea to mix RP and pkill together? to some extent yes.
However, i do believe that some people should have the choice weather to involve themselves in such an activity. The ancient unwritten rule books of RP state that you have to bandage when the opposition bleed, and you have to stop specials when the target is dlsg or lower.
nevertheless, these rules were built upon respect between moral and immoral guilds. Now things changed as they should do, and those ancient rules need amendments, and i see pkilling as kind of an amendment to this technique. I do not agree with it totally by the way DH are enforcing it, but it did prove effective since less people go to tenzek camp to heal or even get armour and make gold.
I still think though that with that kind of play, people will fight back, and when they do you should not be really upset. I skimmed through the log when i first made the comment, and I did not note the sarcasim on behalf of Caber, and now that I see it, and I understand why he posted it. Hope that makes my point clearer:p
Hmm, you're right.
Well, its hard for me Rougan, I knew Canther who actually came up with the idea KoDA and I think its awful what has happened to them. I understand things all to well. You want to be proud and stand for something. But you find it impossible to fight back and still RP. Thats why really you are a disgrace, but dont worry all guilds are disgraces to thier RP. You just seem so proud to be a disgrace.
You can't possibly know what I think of you either, Nogo.
I think you are talking excessively on things that you don't have an idea about, with the presumption that what you defend is necessarily right. But don't worry, that's a common flaw observed in many young gal, hopefully, time will be the cure for ya. Just try to see the situation from different frames, and respect others'.
Yet, I can't say I enjoy your style in arguements. ;)
I don't get it. The morals have the number, but not the brain. If they were just a tad smarter they could win a war against DH easily. Too bad they haven't got the brain to do so.
You were hunted from edoras from what i can make out.
I have seen people hunted half way across arda from the DH camp.
And just becuase you have made your intentions clear, does not mean people like them.
Still, a good read. and i am somewht disappointed to see a few beorns in that party. I try to set better standards - hence my constant frustration. - oh, and dont forger 'bitterness' :p
But i can go on forever...lets just leave it at...I think you are a standard normal loser and you think i'm a mean asshole.
Kill and survive and only then can you enjoy the luxory of those other rp elements you enjoy so much. If you dont earn the right to do that crap then it means nothing. You arent a knight, you dont fight for shit. You think it should be handed to you on a platter.
And I told you, you dont know me. If you did, you'd know that I have been trying hard to change a little the non-pk orientation of KoDA.
I want to kill DH, but I dont want my game to become a text-based quake where only element I can enjoy is to kill or survive. It is just I want to preserve other RP elements, too. Obviously, this is not a common will among the log-page community.
Thats a little underhanded for a knight.
I know you dont want to kill DH. You want to make other people think they are bad for the mud.
I dont know you Nogothrim, and it is obvious that you dont know me either. So shut your mouth up, tho I doubt you have that ability.
Oh yeah...and incase no one ever knew. Rougan isnt a knight he is a fucking pussy.
BAHAHAHAH i love how Direkein and DH have to explain thier reasons. They have to make themselves so fucking righteous. HEave forbid the fucking newbies think you are assholes!!! OMg it cracks me up. You guys really should have joined VC or Amruin 3 years ago.
And no, Direkein is lying, they had been killing our members before Kashmirny, Korath and Cliffton killed Jonny. We did not start this, it is just they got themselves a reason to announce and throw dirt at us at that particular point.
Deboraha needs to shut her noob mouth. She doesnt know shit. She just writes posts about this game.
I dunno...is Caber such a flaming homo to post this so all you fag noobs out there will have a change of heart? I think not. I still have some hope. I think Caber posted this to be sarcastic. To make fun of all the anatharn type logs that were made to criminalize DH. He isnt a loser ass clown like those other people who post logs like this, he is just making fun of them.
I enjoy your style!
Don't blame them dunlendings, this is what you made of our men. Constantly raiding our lands with 5-6 men parties, and gangbanging our people out of the blue, I wonder how you even expected anything better.
Good shit :)
Waste, we have always made our intentions clear. And our boundaries (which includes the rooms within our guildhall and the 5 or 6 rooms in Tenzeks camp) We stick to them. So do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. I welcome people to 'step up' their role play. If you think this log is a good example of that, then you're dumber than you sound.
Deb, don't feel too bad for Kashmirny, after all she was the one that decided to be cute and hunt Jonny outside of DA with Cliffton and Korath. Which is what started them all dying after all.
And as for stories, well hell....I don't think this one has been fully written yet. Do you?
er, what happened to bringing RP to the next level? did you not always tried to say that? its ok for people to die in your village, but its not when you die? double standards?
What's to complain about? You were outnumbered, certainly, and they used nasty tactics but how does that make them any different from a 5-man party of Daen Hecil lowering the flag in Tenzek's camp and locking in a single player?
Yes they raided your village but you had the chance to avoid the fight. More power to you that you stood up and fought and died with honor. It's just a shame that Kashmirny was targeted over this, even if I don't see her in the log here. That's just petty and kinda takes away from overall effect of the 1-man defense of your village.
In the end, what could have been a good fight, something worthy of a story or two to be told to little newbies around the 'campfire', was reduced to yet another display of petty ego: Beeyotch! You killed mah boy! I'm gonna kill you and yo little dog too!
yeah tantor, and they dont even bother to pick the pubes out of their teeth!
What Lamers, that was Low, the log was Long, Stupid i mean wtf they should be pk'd till they are lvl 5 by random people.
I always knew Moral Guilds sucked balls.
Exactly Gleam, you pointed it out. But, Caber was putting the hurt on, for being alone and a thief. 10million gold, hahaha! :)
Hey, isn't this what moral guilds constantly whine about?