Damn rare keys!!!:P
Forgot about Yan. Sorry Yan, always saw you as a Rimmie and not BkD :P.
But i'm calling your bullshit on 'at least 6' kills as a Rimmie. As a matter of fact, I can't even remember you being in the guild, but i'll take your word for it, at least until I can back-track over my logs. still, there's no way in hell you were involved in at least 6 kills.
And unless you were Nirrab, Konj or Majard, don't say you donated tonnes of eq, because these 3 were the ones who made the Rimsilval armoury every boot during that time.
BYE!
I know of at least 2 others who came over Kujo...
Me and Yan, I participated in at least 6 kills and got a ton of eq, and I know Yan played a lot as well. I believe there was one other BKD also. Not to mention BKD donated to your armoury through us...
And for my 3rd comment in a row :),
I don't have a problem with BkD as an organisation, but when idiots like to make up a whole alternate version of mud-history, well, they're just asking to be schooled :).
Oh yeah, and i'm talking shit behind hibernation because i'm scared of your pking prowess :(((((.
Wow Azmar, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. I was going to stay out of this little argument, but that shit about Rimsilval not offering help just goes to prove my point :).
Ultilh, our most active Pkiller at the time, and Konj, a skilled player, transferred to BkD during their Udungul war that occured straight after the last Durm one, a war which we had NO BUSINESS in whatsoever, unlike our wars together against the Durms, in which the Durms went ape-shit killing everyone from any guild. (As an aside, I believe that the afforementioned bkd/udungul war was the last, from memory, war that BkD were apart of before this recent ass-kicking of Udungul), and in case you ain't got it figured, Rimsilval doesn't exist anymore, so how can they offer their support?
Further, You know what support we got we got in our 2 most recent Durm wars from BkD....
1 inactive Ugrim.
1 Zzidane (and that was in 2001).
Please, the 'best fighters' in BkD? No offense to Ugrim, but that's ridiculous.
I think it's best to just blame your stupid comments on the fact that you were a Meg, and hope to god that you don't speak for BkD as a whole.
Otoron, I agree with the vast majority of what you say but there are a few minor differences that have major implications as to the way we act.
In point of truth, BKD are not truely neutral according to a dictionary definition. Because we have long fought against Sauron because of the threat he has posed us many would group us among the armys of good. You will notice that the majority of BKD is 'angelic' according to the two towers alignment system, that we are forbidden to have any impartial or lower members, and have never fought a war against a good guild of arda (though we would have against KoDA if ainur hadn't prohibited it, this was mostly due to out of theme concerns though which is why I think we should be allowed to kill them. If their members, Dwain in this case I believe it was, say that BKD are nothing but dh alts along with a horrid slew of filthy insults that he is lucky I did not harass log, then they should be fully prepared to be called to account). BKD however have not forgotten the betrayal by elves and the unreliability of short-lived mankind. It is not often that BKD will kill elves or men but it does happen. Especially when it is necessary to preserve Erebor in this time of war.
The other matter is not so much a difference in our arguments as it is a topic that has not been discussed as much as it should be. The core value of BKD is the loyalty we share among our members and our friends. It is this loyalty that has allowed BKD to endure among the elite guilds of arda since its foundation. In recent months the Daen Hecil and the Beornings have both aided us greatly while former allies like the Rimsilval (who we sent our best fighters over to aid them in their war) haven't even offered help much less given it. And you can see my previous comment regarding the new Gondor's vengeance clan. Pretty words and shared alignments do nothing to gain the friendship of us, only the shared blood of fighting a mutual enemy will bring us together and Beornings and Daen Hecil have shed that blood and are considered friends and allies of the BKD.
I hope this helps you to more clearly understand our position,
Azmar StonePipe
laugh and ignore thats all we can do I guess....
*Laugh*
*Ignores*
This is... just something you conjured up, Barberi. There is not much in Tolkien's writings to support the claim that dwarves are neutrally aligned. Nonesense.. Consider also that Sauron is a //fallen// Maia of Aul? ... Aul? who created the dwarves!
Otoron, that is a load of bull.
Dwarves take a side because we know that after men and elves are all dead then Sauron will come for us next. The only reason we join is because our existence is threatened by a powerful force that happens to be threatening the men and elves as well.
Dwarves are neutrally aligned. This means that we do not do good deeds merely for the sake of doing good deeds and being good guys. We do good deeds if it is in the interest of ourselves and we do evil deeds if it is our best interest as well.
We are greedy! We are dwarves! That is thematic!
Barberi
Umm, sorry I'm so long-winded.
-o
Ok. I try to refrain from doing theme-bashing, but Azmar's bluster really calls for it. Note: to make something clear, I have no problem with BkD defending a friend or ally. I have a problem with Azmar's claims about the BkD as a guild, and the dwarves of Durin's line.
The crux of his argument is that the BkD is neutral. This is nothing but thematic sleight-of-hand employed to allow the BkD to kill what they want. I'm used to this tactic- I used it as Rim for years.
Now, the BkD are not neutral, no matter what they claim, unless they reverse and shift the very conception of the term. www.dictionary.com gives us the following definition for neutral (there are many more, irrelevant ones, such as acid-base, neutral gear, etc.):
(1) Not aligned with, supporting, or favoring either side in a war, dispute, or contest.
(2) Belonging to neither side in a controversy: on neutral ground.
The dwarves of Erebor, as anyone who plays this MUD or has read LotR knows, have taken a side. When Sauron offered them friendship and rings of power, they deferred as long as possible, and were quite rude in the manner they used. They sent people to Elrond to discuss what should be done, and in the end were beseiged by the forces of the Enemy. Hmm. Not exactly Switzerland. In fact, as I recall, the dwarves of Erebor had a very long standing feud with the forces of Sauron, and the dwarves of Durin's line had always opposed the evil of his works, giving aid to the elves of Eregion when he attacked them, participating in the Last Alliance, and doing all sorts of other things that made them noteworthy. They had problems with Elves at times, skirmishes here and there (the Battle of Five Armies shows quite clearly who their larger foe, was, though), but nothing like their historical animosity towards the Enemy.
In fact, the dwarves of Erebor are a very warlike race, and seem to get into fights a lot. Again, they are no Switzerland, no matter what Azmar would try to have you believe.
So what does he mean by neutral? He means that they attack BOTH sides in the current World War... I guess this is his version of theme. The dwarves of Erebor, a long-established foe of Sauron, find it ok to whack Gondorians defending against him, because they are 'neutral'.
So he'll say, 'no, we are impartial, in our alignment!' But, what does impartial mean, really? Again, the beauty of the internet means I don't have to go to the library and get a dictionary: 'Not partial; not favoring one more than another; treating all alike; unprejudiced; unbiased; disinterested; equitable; fair; just.'
The BkD can be an impartial and neutral guild, in that they are a disinterested party and as such take no side in the current war that rages across Arda. Except, their theme as dwarves of Erebor -mandates- that they have taken a side, because the dwarves DID take a side. This claim of dwarven neutrality is athematic and illogical. Being neutral and being a dwarf doesn't mean you kill both sides equally and thumb your nose at everyone. Well, it could be. But any guild with coded-support has no business violating theme so absurdly, given that four guilds have been removed for similar situations.
There should be some neutral guilds in Arda. They should sit somewhere and talk and chat and certainly not have an armoury, for they don't need it. They're impartial. They sit on the fence and let the fate of the world be decided by other people. Funny. I never saw the dwarves as a people like that.
Defend your friends all you want, but don't claim that you are a neutral guild, and also thematic. Let us hope the fate that was handed down on the Rimsilval, Durmanhoth, Megs, and FRA awaits you as well, and you become the moral orc-slayers and foes of the Enemy you ought be. Just because those groups didn't exist in Tolkien and dwarves of Erebor do makes you no more neutral than they claimed to be. Impartiality is a bullshit attempt to do whatever you want. It's ok for Azmar, an individiual free of any thematic ties. But once you claim to be a dwarf of Erebor and get a buncha coded support, your claims to impartiality (ought) go right out the window.
-o
God, Duncan.. how old are you anyway? When you try to make a point, maybe be a //little// more concise and to the point and clearly state what you mean and feel? Otherwise, direct your comments to /dev/null or something like that instead.
As for the comments from the movies, be careful about that.. In my oppinion, especially Elrond and Saruman are largely misunderstood by the director and screenplay writers, so... just because Elrond says 'Men are weak' and similar, doesn't mean Tolkien agreed. As for Dwarves... look guys, the kingdom of Gondor has been around for over a thousand years.. I //think// the dwarves of one of the richest dwarven realms in Middle Earth has heard about it.
Yes, there is a general distrust between elves and dwarves, stemming from the Nauglamir incident in the Silmarillion, but.... They are still very largely on the same side, and I don't think everyone is so ignorant about all these things as you (someone) claim.
We're a trail guild, and in no postion to make alliances. But i swear, i did all to aid my moral dwarven brothers. That inculdes Mordor raids, and i even helped your members in bkd-udungul war from few weeks ago, for which i was killed by Udungul.
What have you done to change that Daimen? I have never received so much as a tell from a vengeance member nor have I seen anything in my mail or on the guild board. Barberi as agm would certainly have seen something if there was an attempt made to make us an ally but he certainly hasn't mentioned anything...
Azmar, you retard, we did EVERYTHING to change that, but it's you who refuse to change.
Barberi, if BKD is impartial guild, than your theme needs revision, because impartial guilds are no more allowed in Arda. Ask Draugluin.
Bah, too many new guilds to keep track of, more dunedain anyway. Still, gondor's vengeance was an enemy when it was durmanhoth and they have done nothing to change that...
The alignment system on towers is at best a poor representation of the inclinations of the individual. Especially for those of us who are neutral. While we tend to side with morals as evils present a greater threat to us there are circumstances in which it most benefits us to side with evil and then we will do so. Daen Hecil (from the time they were fra) are a prime example of this, we have shared common enemies for years and we have often fought together. In this time we have built relationships that determine how are guilds interact with each other. We are careful not to offend each other and we offer aid whenever possible. This does not make us evil, the fact that we are affiliated with Beornings as well does not make us moral. The BKD have been, are now, and will remain a NEUTRAL guild. It is most certainly not in our best interest to throw away a valued ally for an uncertain relationship with a new guild of elves, a historic enemy of us since we were betrayed and abandoned by them.
BKD is an impartial guild. Dwarves are impartial. I am heroic right now, but I try to stay near impartial but on the more moral side of impartial since BKD is forced to be moral. Ask just about any of my guildmates and they will tell you that I try to stay impartial...not that the alignment system really means a whole lot. But that is what we have so it is what we live by.
Friends or foes, kills between morals/immorals (right or wrong) is of course kontroversial, who would have thought this log would get less then 50 posts not blocked? I didn't.
I fail to see your point Rudmar, please elaborate, preferably using that guide you refer to and so obviously fail to comprehend.
No Azmar he's neither. I'd say what constitutes a retard is someone with a checklist someone else made on how to argue heh
Well, Hans, I still consider you a friend.
As I told Daimen, I have no personal grudge against him. Azmar is correct, I was merely protecting a friend. The only way we could get Daywalker out of there was by getting a key (not able to bash the gate). I knew that if we let Daimen go then he would just go back for Daywalker to finish him off after he had healed up. We HAD to get a key and the key on Daimen was the only key we knew about.
I told Daimen afterwards that it was not something personal for me, but that I also understand if he retaliates.
This is too serious for me, its a game and we play our risks. I stand by my decision and I would do it a hundred more times if the same scenario presented itself. My friends are my friends and I would have a hard time liking myself if I didn't help them in times of need. I don't expect the same from them though because that is my outlook, not necessarily theirs.
Just want to point out that I know Daywalker would do the same for me. But I don't expect a friend to do such.
Barberi Stoutheart
FDL, Hans, are you retarded or just criminally stupid? You were a fricking durm you reject. Barberi has NEVER claimed to be on the side of Gondor, nor for that matter have BKD. Nor are we 'servants of Sauron', we control our own fate and bow our knees to none. This fight was about friendship, quite possibly the single greatest responsibility each dwarf has is to his friends. Barberi fulfilled that responsibility and I am proud to stand and fight with him.
Azmar
You where a friend of mine Barberi, I thought you where a great man. But now you are just another servant of sauron. I need to make another highlight on a man that might try to kill me or my moral friends sigh...
i noticed that Daimen wasnt wielding his sword. i wonder why...
J00 5UX0|2 n00|B 1 PVV|VZ J00!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tell me something I don't already know Ash
I hate
Wow, I don't know where to start...
So I won't.
Like me or hate me for what I do.
Barberi
This mud is, sadly, more a powerplaying mud then a RP mud
Daimen: missalias?
Duncan: you're a PKilling machine, how many deaths in a day?
SAD(*!(#*@U?ASD L!(@#*!@(#*?!@(#*!@#ASDF!@(#!*@#(!@#!)@31
I agree with Azmar!
Edit: Post before should of course be 'logical' rather than 'not logical'.
If anyone is interested send me a mail on the mud and I will arrange a meeting with you and attempt to teach you the rudiments of debate and writing. For those with no wish to trouble yourself allow me to share a few thoughts with you here.
1. Each argument should have a clearly defined main point.
2. The main point should be thoroughly supported by sub points including at least one specific example.
3. Avoid generalities and absolutes
4. Address the argument to a group or person if it is not intended for everyone to avoid confusion
5. If you are going to flame, fine, flame away but make sure your arguments are well supported and not logical and preferably NOT written in anger. Too many flames merely state'J00 5UX0|2 n00|B 1 PVV|VZ J00!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
Azmar StonePipe
Hahaha, here we go again, talking trash and crap about RP. Come on guys, if the dwarves would really RP they wouldn't leave theyre mountain, just whack orcs right outside it, but hey, check out the frigging game technicalities, the dwarves would have like no armour, few newbie weapons, crappy gold etc. RP that, Amruin should just stick to kill that thug in Edoras and maybe Tenzek every now and then if they.. oh yes, sorry, it can only be critisized as RP when some individual goes to defend his friend. OOOH it sure is evil and immoral to defend your friends *spits*. Don't even start to talk about good RP in a game that does not (at least yet IMO) support deacent roleplaying.
Evil was spreading across the land and only a few knew the extent of it. I think Duncan has it right here in a mostly in a theme sense, but if you remember what Elrond said in the Fellowship movie, he doubted the dwarves would help. They were content to dig in their mountains. Yes Barberi is moral but I am sure we all have friends on the otherside of morality. If not then some that we give grudging repect to.
Bah, ban them all anyway
Oops, wrong log
Ban all these fools Rhoads
Rhoads, why is it disappointing to see Barberi there? Unlike amruin, Beornings and Daen Hecil stepped up to the plate and helped us when we needed it (not that we weren't raping udungul just fine...). The one thing dwarves remember even longer than an enemy is a friend. We will stand by our brothers and by those who aid them. I would gladly fight to the death to aid Beornings or Daen Hecil because they have put their lives on the line for us. Bottom line. Period. Amruin simply have not stuck with us the way these other guilds have. BKD, no matter what alignment the ainur force us too, are neutral. We generally aid morals because it is evils that are attacking us. But if, as in this case, a moral person is attacking a staunch ally, then we will do all we can to destroy them and preserve our ally. If you want BKD as an ally, then prove it as Daen Hecil and Beornings have.
Azmar StonePipe
...Who the fuck is Balder? :P
Really disappointing to see Barberi in that.
I think that people should just do what they want and not have others bitch about it :) This is OUR own world, Tolkien only created the base from which we can work from.
Umm, I think a lot of those people would know of what was going on, Duncan. Erebor is being seiged by sauron's forces, why would they try to kill people who are also battling against their common enemy, in turn helping that enemy out? And you have to remember that the fellowship has already travelled to mt, spreading word on the way to lothlorien and rohan, etc. So the rohirrim and lothlorien would both know what was going on around the world.
I think its more about the fact that BkD used to be friends with the moral guilds but now assisted in killing another moral etc. That kind of stuff.. more then tolkien stuff.. my guess.
*agrees with Duncan*
How was a beorning involved in this anyway? all i see is a few tells from skyman *shrugs*
Special thanx to Barberi! You rock man ! So what ... I can kill KoDA as much as I like but I would help Barberi anytime and will do it before I think of some SoU!
OK, ****ING OPEN YOUR ****ING EYES AND READ AT LEAST ONE BOOK CAREFULLY?
Why the **** should there be moral and immoral??? Where did you read that the Dwarves from Erebor liked MT? Did they know what's MT at all? The elves in Caras almost shot Gimli, we have this hatred between dwarves and elves which started with the Nauglamir thing but NO!!! - there is black and white, everything should be either black or white so the VC and the BKD should be allies!
WTF means moral? Only the white council knew about those things. The Beornings did NOT - they just wanted the ****ing orcs out of their meadows, the Dunlendings did NOT - they just wanted the **** forgoil out of their land, the Rohirrim did NOT - they just wanted the ****ing Dunlendings to stop harassing them. I guess the elves wanted no hetero relations or something. Whatever. Only the Rimsilval (not RoI) could pretend to know about moral and immoral. In Gondor they had no idea what was going on around the world (at least watch the goddamn movie, it's damn good if you cut out Arwen, that ****ing bitch).
So please let's stop with that black-and-white view and have a really 'Tolkienish' environment?? That's NOT the Bible, that's The LoTR!!!!
Er, who told you Barberi didn't rp. Maybe he's obsessed by evil demons, or forced by an unknown force to help Daywalker. That's RP too.
Barberi, by joining bkd you picked a side, and it's moral. Forget all OOC connections and roleplay it, goddammit :)
Duncan is no more DH? Oh, wasn't aware.
There is no DH, Beornings and BKD, I merely helped cause Daywalker was in trouble. BKD is not involved beyond that unless other circumstances make it so.
BKD,Beornings,DH...this mud is no fun anymore...
Duncan THE BEST!
You won`t find such friend anywhere !
I was on my way to get the key! =P