Aparently this is how he got whip from Naith too
Christ, ok for those of you who haven't programmed any web applications, you should always (ALWAYS) check any untrusted string as potentially corrupt.
There are two methods for doing this in zmud, one is obscurity, change all of the special characters in the settings so that they aren't the same as semi-colon, and disable the ones which you don't use.
Two, (copy/paste from the help file)
quote
Syntax: %quote(s)
Returns the string s with any special characters quoted with the current quote character.
if you're triggering or scripting with parameters pass anything you get back from it through quote, then it will pass that string back to the mud without parsing it, so in this case Durad would have commed that he was backstabbed by ;quit;
There, now, I suggest you all read a book on secure programming and code injection attacks.
Jesus...
Going way back to Theodrek's comment...it's super super easy to protect against something like this.
There are probably a dozen ways...and if one doesn't know how to do that, then one should probably email Zugg and ask for a refund, because one is too stupid to own a client that has the capability of using triggers.
Btw, I'll foolproof anyone's client triggers for 5k! (well actually, I'll teach you how to do it yourself)
I also fail to see the difference between this, and between someone emoting to set off a trigger to steal. Both are attempting to cause a trigger to fire in order to get the character to do something they do not wish to do. Thieves try to make better triggers at Alexa..it's part of the deal. So should people with other kinds of trigggers.
what about logs of people using 'has died' to set off a trigger during a travelto that repeatedly causes the person to stop, and therefore not be able to run away? There's one up here of Therina or someone doing it, where was the 'outcry' then?
And last but not least, it's a stupid sword. The trick had more value in pointing out the stupidity of people rather than actually having some sword to use for a day, imo. Besides, of all of the things one could do, quit is pretty harmless.
I woulda been more creative!
;emote kneel down and pray's to Grimscar.;emote slobs da knob with gusto!;give sheath to grimscar;thank grimscar for considering me worthy;'I shall die now for my sins;roar;enter;do 3s,w,;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;do s,n;cry;
See now then this log woulda been a five. I think 'quit' was kinda lame.
I find this log to be disturbingly arousing...
I just think that if Grimscar was a Dung, and the logger was some moral who lost Aiglos to it this log would possibly be brilliant and the moral guy would have been a retard for letting his triggers fire like that.
I use aliases because its just plain tiring for me to type everything in. I know all my aliases, excluding a few of the longer ones, by hand/memory. But I'm not going to type my way everywhere and back one command at a time, because there's no point to it most of the time.
Go Alkath!
26 alias enough? LOL with my memory that is just hillarious. Mapping on the other hand and speedwalk and backwalk should be banned but that is no way they could stop that.
Idiot. How do you distinguish between a client an telnet? You don't. It's the same type of connection.
Espera, I'm not huge on clients, if you'll notice in my logs. But what you said is just completely stupid. Lets compare it to transportation, you're saying that 2 legs and 2 feet is more then enough for anyone. Yet, anyone with any common sense knows that being in a plane, train or automobile is the way to go. Don't confuse opinions with facts please.
eh, some people use clients because they're forgetful and need more aliases, like myself, some use them for mapping (if they can figure out how to use it). I like using clients, personally i hated java and telnet when i first started
Clients should be banned in this game. Any ainur support for them is ludicrous. With clients it takes no skill at all to play this game. 1 Trigger and 36 alias's is more than enough to do everything you need to do on this mud if you are actually competent. I for one would love to see all but Java and Telnet banned.
That's certainly not a new trick. I even did it to a few people - friends, back when I was around. Like , he would constantly set off my trigger with '$ I have been backstabbed by a huge cock!' and ';emote sucks dick for money.;' for fun. :P Right here, though, the bigger issue...I read...whoever it was that copied Osse's news post. And what Grimscar did could not be avoided, even if Durad had fool proofed his triggers (which I've no doubt he did). Putting it in your description like that makes it show up without anything in front of it. So even if Durad had Pattern: ^Without warning Command: doshit, Grimscar's went off anyway. Really, Grimscar, what you did was in poor taste. I don't care who you are, or on who's side you're on.
When will you stop stereotyping people who fight against Sauron? Here are a few things you might want to consider.
1. Effective soldiers are brutal and ruthless.
2. Soldiers have NEVER been KODA-like pacifists. Face it, Knights were viscious, and codes had to be put in place to keep them in line.
3. Effective soldiers are cunning and will use the weakness of the enemy against them.
I think both Daen Hecil and Gondor's Vengeance have a good grasp on this.
On exploiting Clients, I think it's fine, so long as you stay away from injection attacks. (For those of you who don't know, an injection attack sends commands to a client where a normal string should go). If somebody has a #TRIGGER {Orc leaves %1} {%1}, by all means, exploit it. It's his fault for using something like that. All you're doing is making the trigger do what it's supposed to do. What Grimscar did here wasn't that. Durad's backstab trigger was not intended to execute commands. Does that make any sense?
also, i'd like to add that i do think Grimscar is a skilled player, however you put it. anyone with that much time and frequency on has to be : |
i just think his methods are questionable.
-Lotus-
the difference is, lotus, that the bug the thieves abused was due to the way the mud was coded, the so called bug that grimscar 'abused' is due to a character that zmud sets. you could put anything in between ;'s that would simulate a mud command, such as ;drop all;. grismcar really shouldn't be punished for taking advantage of durad's client trigger. if it were an actual mud bug, then sure, nuke him, but because it's an independant program that was abused, there shouldn't be any punishment at all. at least that's how i feel =\
well.. to begin i've mudded here for 6-7 years, but i'm not a 'power player' like most of the posters in this thread, and i don't claim to be a flaming badass. but that doesn't mean i can't make correct obeservations.
ever since i came back from hibernation a while ago, i've seen Grimscar do some pretty tasteless things. he masquerades as 'moral' yet uses blatantly immoral and unequivocally underhanded methods to achieve his ends. i guess it could be justified the same way one would justify an assassin being in the service of the White Tower - that the ends justify the means. as long as you're harming Sauron's buddies, you're doing the right thing. and that's ok, but only to a limit.
there were a few thieves here that abused a bug a tiny while back (using capital letters in trigger), and they, and ALL their alts were summarily nuked, because it was *assumed* that they had knowledge of the bug that they were abusing.
in this instance, grimscar *obviousbly* knew exactly what he was doing and not only did he abuse the bug, but instead of joking about it and saying 'heh gotcha', he followed through with the abuse.
no-name thieves (maybe) abuse bug = all characters are nuked.
grimscar (difinitely) abuses bug = perhaps a warning?
from what i've seen and heard, this is just one more step in a pattern of abusive and arrogant behaviour. i guess the question is: is he really that charismatic with ainur, or is he protected from up on high?
-Lotus-
also, you can do lots of wonderfull things with zmud - make peoples screens clear, play musical sounds abd much much more all by useing tells.
I understand some blocks were put on the mud for some of the commands, but not all.
btw, Grimscar did not think up this idea. I used it on him ages ago in a past life. Only he made himself quit while trying to say ;quit; :p
HAHA
Trempk : Ok, but what about all those times when people have used this kind of thing to take advantage of people client triggers by screwing up thieves at the auction, or bringing people from unidle, or saying Orc leaves west. and shit to make them screw up and die in a pk?
---
For that the lawsys sais it perfect. Such anti-idle triggers are highly forbidden and firing them and finding out that a person has such one can get this person nuked because of the violations. So its nothing bad at all.
---
Whoever came up with that first, it was brilliant, no matter how very low it may be. And some of you guys, like sime, can't really call it criticism when you bash him every possible chance you get. Save it for the important occasions like this one and maybe people will take you seriously. Otherwise, he did us all a favor, because he got it changed. On the other hand, now that everyone can see how its done, posting the log opened the door for a bunch of assholes to start using this for really severe reasons. So now we all have to protect ourselves from it anyway! Psha.
And shit, call this abusing a client bug? Ok, but what about all those times when people have used this kind of thing to take advantage of people client triggers by screwing up thieves at the auction, or bringing people from unidle, or saying Orc leaves west. and shit to make them screw up and die in a pk? Where were you all criticising then? Has died, you killed. I guess MELS is more important than getting someone pked though.
In my opinion Durad...you are a fucking idiot. WEAR ALL FROM GROUND!
personnaly the only trigger i have when someone backstabs me is todo wimpy off, which doesnt really affect anything but the fact that it could save my life if i am low on hp :P And this log is funny as hell no matter who it happened too :) hahaha maybe cheap but still funny
And i'm not 'sucking up' to Grimscar, why the hell would I care what someone who is on the other side of the world thinks about me on a text-based game I rarely play? :P If this were done by anyone else it still would've been funny as hell.
Hahahahahahah, that's the fucking greatest thing i've ever seen, don't have homosexual triggers and this would've been avoided.
im sure grimscar is more than capable of 'beating' many people on the mud
that isn't a fancy client trigger automating the game for you, it doesn't do hunt breaks. all it does it tell people you got backstabbed. the only fuckwits are you and the rest of the people who want to manipulate other people's clients to force them to do things. the only reason i can think of for you wanting to do this is because you can't seem to beat people on the mud so you have to beat their client.
This is bull, leave him alone, I agree with Espera, You don't need a damned trigger for everything for christs sake.
Mind you, that's probably on account of my being generically included on the receiving end of most of his barbed comments. Unfair, if you ask me, especially the generic inclusion thing. :(
You know, I find quite a number of people to be opinionated, but never have I encountered someone so innocently smug and self-righteous as Muaddib, while attempting, poorly, to masquerade as mischievous.
Coming from my frame of reference, having always tried to behave honourably, I don't see how this 'little prank' can even be defended. It's not just foul play, it's OOC foul play, which reflects poorly on the typist, not the character.
Oh my. Someone using a fun little trick and another loosing a little sword.
Knowing that you can do anything with that trigger trick. Steal the charecter or suicide it. This is just a little prank and not worthy of all theese comments :-)
I'm sorry, but what Darkterror said was one of the most profound, gut wrenching things to read. Thank you, Darkterror, thank you.
Lol lots of comments. First thing, Grimscar did not 'discover' this trigger abuse. We are a lot of people that know it and I have done this several times to friends and they to men so we can have fun. I did not even protect my client against it till now. Its just that I did not believe anyone will get so low to use it on enemies to steal items or make them quit or smth. Actually its not very illeagal but it sure is pretty lame and stupid. And don`t nuke Grimscar cause this mud is his life atm. For the past 2 months he has made 36d age. Which means that one month he lost in mud. Don`t ruin this boy`s reason to live :) Sooner or later he will leave it same way all idiots do. As for triggers in future we are not here to think how to abuse enemies` triggers and ruin their play using software-errors. We are here to play. Wanna be better .. explore game .. be a better player ... kill ... quest ... Its a matter of fun afterall. So lets not act like fools. I can tell that 90% of the people who pretend to be extra-idiots in mud are very very cool people in RL who just want to be something else somewhere else:) Lets be nice to each other ... its Christmas time :))
Agrun that is BS and you know it. He returned whip because it was whip and he got no use for it. He woulden't return mels because he can use that one
Bah, Melkor told me when i played er's and fr's were fucking with our triggers than anyone who uses triggers deserves whatever they got and if tyhey did it to us then we should just not use triggers... clearly the ainur have no clue what they are diong here. We want less automation, not protection for all the fuckwits on this mud who cant do jack shit without all their fancy clients.
I remember the clear screen thing, Grimscar gets away with everything :(
Whats lame is people that cant see the difference between whining and critisism. I myself am disgusted to see people nuked for less stuff then this. While Grimscar can do it in plain daylight and always seem to talk himself out of nuke/warnings.
you people are getting too damn worked up over this. it is a game. you're all whining. and merry christmas saritalr.
And you ALL suck, whiners. Yes, I'm a whiner too, we ALL suck, blah:(
Noone made Durad use such a bs trigger - it's client stuff, so bugging it is not illegal. I'm sorry I'm defending this little moron Grimscar. Now go kick his ass...
Guys, in EVERY software exists a lot of bugs, we all know that don't we?
Now, Grimscar found a bug and used it against his enemies. Naith, who was probably acting democratic to Grimscar afterwards, got his whip back and learnt how to change his trigger. Durad, however, probably acted like the ass he is and deserves that MELS to be kept.
Granted this is probably not the most honorable way to inform people about this, but it sure is the funniest. :P
Grimscar seeing people upset like this really does bring you some sort of twisted inner joy doesnt it?
merry christmas sweetheart.
Whatever, Grimscar should've been nuked for this. Remember the clear-screen command you could do to zMud people through a telnet client? I set that as my legendinfo a while back and lost 3 characters directly because of that. So if Grimscar can't even lose one for something thats even less controlling, then that's bullshit. IMO.
Well, good trick:P
I don't now what happened here. What happened?
I've seen someone abusing this like a year ago, too. Not on such bold occasions, though.
Good point Radazen.
True, Pounder, but what about people who don't have much experience with mud clients, but make their own triggers anyway? You can't assume that everyone who has a backstab trigger vulnerable to that trick got it from someone else. And if they did, then someone had to originally make it and use it themselves to begin with, which just brings us back to this point: whether or not your trigger is subject to abuse like this has nothing to do with whether or not you copied your settings from someone. Whoever made them, you or someone else, just didn't realize the potential for abuse.
I think the person that first started this whole ive been backstabbed by blah blah trigger, that person didnt realize that triggers that include a word made in the mud can be used in such ways. Grimscar you could have used Without warning, ;drop all; stabs you from behind!
and you could probably even used trigger drops todo get sheath
Learning people how to setup a trigger to show who and where they were backstabbed isent cheating, and i doubt that the first person that made it realized it could be abused. Grimscar probably just got bored and angry that he didnt get any good pk toys. Afk'd, sat down with some people irl and they went through many ways how to get stuff off people easily. i would know, i did that 4 years ago. and i figured out something, and then was nuked for it. Now i just wonder when will Grim get nuked...... Guess it all comes down to how many people upstairs you know/how good you are at licking.
Cause he should be nuked already if there was objectivity.
Well maybe we all will get a late christmas present if we really wish for it.
Nothing personal but its far less lame than people copying tons of zmud files that have aliases and triggers when they don't understand half the triggers or what they do and half the areas and all the cool details about them. And no i didn't endorse what he did, i just said all you people who didn't look up in zmud how to do things and make your own triggers, i think you deserve it.
Agrun please stop taking sides with Grimscar mainly cause your allies with them and like to see him pk your guilds enemys.
This is cheating and it proves to show what Grimscar is really about and has been about for a while. Some people ignored to realize it, now with facts in your faces i cant see how you side with his actions.
Now what bothers me is that Grimscar is still around after this.....anyone here care to recap what warnings they know Grimscar has?
I heard he got one for Lvl bashing some guy.
oh and yes this was incredibly freaking lame. which is why it doesn't suprise me grimster did it seems like he's always abusing stuff or killing allies to get uniques..
hey dev. love you too
LOL DEVINIUS!
I like Grimscar, but injection attacks are simply cheap.
Clearly people take this game far too seriously - so to help you I have decided to share a few pearls of wisdom from the years I've spent mudding on Towers.
My advice on how to enhance your level of fun on T2T.
1.When mudding, use windows telnet. Clients are over rated.
2.When being pkilled, do 10e,10s,10w,10n over and over again till you're dead. Then say 'oops misalias'.
3.When pkilling someone, wear the green wedding dress and offer your target their life for marriage.
4.If you must pkill someone, your weapon of choice should always be a walking staff.
5.If you have been pkilled, go to Bree or Rhos and type: trigger enters todo 'I just got pk'd, do you have some spare gold please?
If you follow these 5 simple steps, your level of fun will increase dramatically, or at the very least, you will make lots of new enemies who will certainly help make your life more interesting. And interesting = fun. Just ask Namarik.
One final little note - did you guys know there was a courthouse in Lorien! That's cause there isn't. You know who you are.
Note to self: *yawn*
I laughed very hard when I read this :P
This is typical, exactly what I would expect from grimscar. I only hope he does it again.
'clever'? This is going too much, since when ABUSING A BUG (in this case, not a T2T but a client one) is a 'smart' thing to do?
Perhaps I should let a friend use my magic anti-zMud says, that cause zMud to crash, against some of you in the middle of a PK? Just because it can be argued it's not clever to use a client which has bugs. And you can't avoid these bugs by writing any triggers.
Funny. Shows how clever Durad is. This would've been much more fun had it been in the middle of a PK ... :)
I propose this case #6209 to be closed by the T2TCouncil.
I must say Pounder, Osse must've never heard of Grimscar if he thinks people on this mud are honorable. The people who use their client without knowing how it works are indeed stupid but I am sure Durad knows what it can do, but as others who fell for the trick, didn't think someone would be that low and abuse this for own gain.
Grimscar certainly has double-moral on things. He is allowed to abuse things and kill anyone he thinks deserves it, and he can as long as he has one of the elite weapons, but when someone kills a friend of his for doing similar stuff to what Grimscar pulled off in this log.. its just simply wrong.
Yeah just in case you didn't see it...
Note 54 Osse (Sat Dec 20 2003) Exploitation of Client Triggers
It has come to my attention recently that certain clever
people have decided that an edge can be gained in this game
by intentionally causing other players' client triggers to
go off, even going so far as to pass commands to the other
players' clients to make them perform certain actions.
Let me make this clear: such actions will not be tolerated.
Intentionally exploiting another player's client triggers,
whether for 'fun' or for personal gain, amounts to stealing
that character, whether for a single command or a string of
commands. Character stealing is among the worst crimes you
can commit on this game.
Furthermore, people who set triggers on their clients without
fully understanding them share some blame. Each player is
responsible for ensuring that their characters are as secure
as possible. This includes ensuring password security, and it
includes knowing what settings you have in place and how they
work.
Consider a short analogy. If you own a car, you can choose
--More--(50% line 24 of 48)--
to leave it unlocked, with the windows down and keys in the
ignition in downtown New York. Doing so is not against the
law. But when someone intentionally takes advantage of your
carelessness and drives away in it, they have committed grand
larceny. And you -- well, you're the idiot who no longer has
a car, and you are at least partially to blame for not being
smart and taking precautions.
With that being said, any further instances of this problem
will be dealt with as follows:
The perpetrator will be nuked.
The victim will receive a warning for enabling insecure client
settings that allowed the compromisation of their character.
I trust that the above actions will never need to be taken, as
I know all of our players are just as dedicated to following the
rules as they are to always behaving in the spirit of respect,
fair play and sportsmanship.
Osse
Power of Law
******
But i gotta admit, i would put more of the blame on the people just copying shit onto their client without knowing anything what all it does.
Actually i gave whip back because I respect Naith. :)
You're now not gonna say you don't need mels and whip, right? You can't possibly be so full of morality that you wanted to make people secure their clients?
You did that for the good of the Grimscar:)
Consider that I did this for the good of the mud. In the future, maybe you won't be so stupid. :)
From what I heard it was a mass harassment:P And this mels and whip, doh:)
I heard that this is trigger abuse in the eyes of the ainus and that it is against the rules on T2T.
News, doh:P
I _never_ said it was honorable.
I don't wanna start a mass flaming comment section but.... In what action of Grimscar's did you see honor? I wonder what ainur are gonna do about this?
Winnetou, I don't lick anybody's ass, I don't consistently offer my help to anybody if I'm not getting something in return, I'm just like that. If Grimscar plays for himself, let him play for himself, I'm just saying that this plot showed how much of idiots all you people are for having the exact same trigger and not even testing it properly. To think over half the MUD are computer scientists or programmers, no wonder 90% of software is hackable now..:P
I think it's cheap and messed up. Where's the honor in this?
When you, Agrun, understand that Grimscar plays ONLY FOR HIMSELF and has no real friends you will stop licking his ass.
I didn't really have whip anyways.
It's not cheating at all...You have the stupid trigger, you have no fucking idea how it works, you're the dumbass. He didn't abuse anything, if you didnt have that trigger then you wouldn't have logged off.
Pretty fucking smart on his side, and pretty fucking stupid on your side Durad.
the sad thing its not... somewhere in the help files it says that if someone fucks up your client trigs its your fault... th mud trigger wont allow that to happen.
smart, but cheating all the same
Ouch...
damn i read about that trick somewhere, thought briefly about what trigs everybody uses, but gave up too soon:((
Yeah, what Aravor said.
wear all from ground ;)
But er, yeah... that... that is rather... meh.
If you typed 'wear all from ground' at once, you wouldn't have lost it..