Some thought on client settings. What is legal and what is not. How should it be? Would really like to hear //your// oppinion. Please don't mention names or try to get people nuked in this thread. This should have been posted in the forums but then again. I want people to actually see it :-)
Its really only if you go afk while your bot plays that you are super woundable. If you are right there controling the bot you can take over and do what you need to escape.
I feel something that should be nukeable is to do double breaks. By double breaking you are abusing a pathch in the game that is there to prevent trigger loops. You set off his trigger knowing that the system will not allow the trigger to go of right after it just went off. Thereby you can bypass the assassins trigger rendering it useless and get out clean. That is deleberate abuse of the system and should be threated as any bug abuse.
Another thing the abusing the emote command. It's a nice command to use for roleplay and faking realistic things. How do you fake that you fade into the shadows? How do you fake you get thrown off a balcony? Of cause who is to decide what is realisticly fakeable and what is not? :-)
Still I feel that the rules seem way to wague. Allowing people to get nuked without them even knowing they did anything wrong. But parhaps it isn't even possible to make rules that is acceptable by the majority.
Heh, muaddib, make all the gold making bots you want and give them to my enemies. Hell, i'll pay you 1k every time i kill an enemy cause they were using your bot.
The biggest problems with clients are not the gold making scripts or the full on pk/huntbreak automation because very few people have that. The unlimited triggers/aliases make people lazy as hell. Why bother actually learning how to do a quest when you can just make another alias for it? Because of clients (i just counted), i have 174 huntbreaks all ready to go at any given time in a simple to remember system using short abbreviations followed by a # e.g. edo1, rhos4, along those lines. I have a lot of triggers too but i rarely use them because they are so easily taken advantage of by anyone with a brain (I wanna see some of you evils run to mordor when you get attacked and say fades into the shadows a few times and see if you can get your attackers killed). Also with the unlimited aliases you have a TON of quest info sharing. Many people share client files and never actually doa quest or find anything on there own but they can sure as hell type something like pssgo/pssback and still not have a clue of what they are doing.
OK, making the script work *is* fun. But running it...*yawn*
Guideline.. hmm.. the situation as it is now, I've the feeling that it depends solely on the specific admin's judgment.
And what should it be like? I really doubt if one could propose a working and fair system, which would be quite sensible too..
What the hell? Holic can comment here? :-P
Of cause you are right that we play because it is fun. But there are still the tiresome //jobs// that have to be done. You need to make gold if you like to play with/against the other players on the MUD. You have to pay for other skills like resist magic. And you have to quest equipment. This were all very funny the first 20-30 times. The next 100-200 times it were a somewhat amusing routine. Sooner or later you just want this job of getting ready to be over as painfully as possible so you can start playing.
I don't know why you are talking about figuring out quests. We all think that is funny but what does that have todo with client settings? I can asure you that it is quite impossible to make settings that can figure out quests for you.
Aravor the fun lies in making the bot or script. Whats the diffrence in typing the command yourself and making your client type it for you?
Its not like your client figures out how to do stuff for you. It only does what you have figured out and told it to do. The client may react a bit faster than you would. But it cannot improvise or guess.
I feel the problem appers when people get nuked for a client setting. Where is the line between settings that are ok and the setting you get nuked for. How does the player know when he is bending the rules?
The nuke is also interpeted very diffrently from person to person. Some players shrug and say. I can make a new char in 2 weeks. Others got so frustrated over loosing the char they used 6 months creating that they almost give up life.
What I am interested in is weather or not it would be possible to find some kind of guideline that specifies what is tolerated.
Seriously though, how much better off would the mud be without clients? So few people are actually competent w/o using their clients now that it is pathetic. I may be one of the only one's left who actually does mordor by hand (except for getting to the damn narchost healer, too long to do by hand). My other problem with clients is how hard they make it to pk someone. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to try to hunt me through the carrock. My main grief with clients though are people like darkterror, who come along and steal someone else's client and then start talking trash and killing newbies. There is no way in hell darkterror could solo me (though he has tried repeatedly against several of my chars both solo and in bangs) yet from the way he talks, he has solod like everyone on the mud. (Btw i'm not trying to say i'm the best at dodging, i think there are definitily people out there who are more skilled at it than I) Darkterror isn't the only person like this, i'm sure everyone who reads this can think of a few off the top of their heads. These players are the core of the problems with T2T. They're jackasses who have absolutely no redeeming value and should be banned from the mud solely because they attract like kind and then ruin the fun of the legitimate player base. Sorry about the very improper format but its 3am and i've been up since 6 this morning :/
Wow! I actually agree with holic...
And one more thing, if you bot, where's the fun?
I think all should be allowed if you are there to watch it.
And I really wonder how can botting be recognized properly, so that the guilty get punished and the innocent don't. On the basis of the 'non-answered tell from the Ainu'? Yeah, sure.
As for the 'client settings inheritance', IMHO it's got more to do with quest info than with the 'what client settings should be allowed' problem.
I think you people that believe clients are great and everything else are pretty stupid. Understanding that that may sound a bit harsh let me refocus you to the fact that this is a game. You don't have to kill 1000-2000 ugly orcs, you don't have forge 100 swords, this isn't your job, this is a game. You play because at point you enjoyed typing in commands, reading the descriptions in the rooms and solving quests.
Using shortcuts of any form or fashion that aren't in game undermines the premise of why it was created and makes you no better then slob-players from any other game that design bots/hacks that give them an unfair advantage.
Now, you can keep harping on the fact that we all have access to clients and that everyone else should be allowed to use them as they see fit, but what really are you saying with that? That because you've lost interest in the game, but now that you're a zombie you should be allowed to continue running around collecting gear and quest items with scripts while other people are standing their handtyping all their actions?
Maybe I don't know shit, but in every instance the real fun is gained by doing it yourself. The first time someone figures out a quest, they have a huge sense of accomplishment and I'm certain they didn't have a fancy setup to do that for them. Not to mention the best logs come from those players that don't have client heavy setups. Look at Mahamodie's log of killing Wombat and Jackel, the kid was doing it by hand and it was incredible to see. Where as someone such as Raqtor or Nagash has heavy-client setups and do nothing but hit a button to either get unlost or to trigger multiple huntbreak areas. That's not fun at all to see and no one enjoys it, its boring and slob-play, you can have it.
But what the hell do I know, somewhere along the lines it was decided that I'm detrimental to this game.
And Tilion. Its nice to see you know that there is a t2t MUD forum. I am pretty sure you are the only one to know that. :-P
Perhaps your intensions were to use our site for your forum cemmercials? :-P
In my oppinion client assistance should be legal as long as you are there at the keyboard controling it.
After you have forged 10-20 - 100 swords you know how to do it. And it is an annoying process. What is the harm of triggering some of theese things for you? Is this more unfair than someone making an advanced huntbreak aliase. An alias that emotes, tribblebreaks and runs through 3-4 huntbreaks in a row? If you do the huntbreak alias and escape a PK you are praised like a hero. If you make the forge triggers you are shamed and nuked?
Nobody is arguing that full botting while you arent even there controling it is unfair. But some assisting settings to make your goldmaking a little less stressing? Gold making is just some routine things you keep doing over and over and over. Is it any wonder that after 1000-2000 ugly orc's some people start to think. Wouldn't it be easyer if I just made this little trigger to do this painfull routine for me? What if I make an alias that runs from this camp and both sells and deposits for me? What is I make 2 aliases. One that heals too wich I use when thats needed.
Now comes the big question. What if I just made one alias and let my client decide if I need to heal in it? I mean it doeas the same thing I would do. If my hitpoints is under me prefered ammount it rund the alias with healing in?
Not that anyone would be able see if I or the client choose wich alias to use. Its just a thought :-)
How certain can anyone even be that the client did that for you or you were actually doing that? Do you just nuke people because you have suspicion? How many have been wronfully nuked? I am sure its not countable. How many have slipped though the holes with intencive overnight botting while others have been nuked for a simple trigger?
Now if everything were legal as long as you are there at the keyboard. That would be easy to test.
Before clients were popular, people weren't dicks, 'nuff said.
Hey guys.:) I can't log in but I can comment. Two things...
1. I think anything is reasonable as long as you are at your screen monitoring your client and typing commands to start something new (ie: you type in look for orc and your client would find the next one or kill orc to start the fight, but at least something to start each unique phaze in terms of farming blah blah)
2. The thing that really bothers me tremendously is when people 'inherit' massive amounts of quest info/client settings that they didn't do themselves and then they look that much better. The wouldn't have had to go over each area to figure out quests, or gone on a single pk to have certain things like hunting triggers etc. Thats what sorta pisses me off. Now if someone who knows the game, puts in a significant portion of stuff into their client (aliases/triggers/settings/mappings) then props to them for using it and being skilled at the game.
Anyways, you guys have a great day:)
*waves her 'TELNET FOREVER' flag*
the administration shouldn't care about clients at all. even less if someone uses your client against you - it's your own repsonsibility to use it. The administration is responsible only for the mud. and excuse me but it's lame to comm you were bstabbed. and if you use strange zmud settings or you havent turned them off, then it's your problem, i dont use zmud atm. some people use mush clients and stuff, they take responsibility for their clients. it's not anyone's business what client you use, the output matters.
This is a fine line. I know people, and have seen ample evidence on this log page that many people do the same thing, that have clients set up so that all they have to do is enter a targets name, and the client takes over for them. Could these people perform these actions without this client set up? Of course they could. However, people get these clients to make playing this game easier. I say, if people use client triggers to ASSIST in playing, then its fine, but when people use clients to play for them, it becomes a problem.
That said, these client triggers aren't the answer to everything anyways. Some people, such as Grimscar, are just very good typist, they can watch whats happening and instinctively know what to do and type in the approppriate commands. Others, like me, suck so matter what client settings they have.
If someone wants to run a fancy script to make gold all night by themselves...why should I care?
It'd just make them really easy to kill, while they're afk, and then their ghost can run around botting the rest of the night, doing nothing, and I'd get free gear out of it.
I don't care how fancy your client is, but I also don't think the administration should care if someone abuses your 'fancy' client against you, and uses it to kill you.
But hey, I'll just follow the rules...but I always advocate for more freedoms.
It really ain't interesting what the players think is legal or not. What matters is what the ainu belives is legal.
This may very well vary greatly from ainu to ainu. If you are on the wrong side of any particular ainu history has proven some of them are willing to warn/imprison/nuke for any client settings - and call it botting. The only thing that may save you here is the honest powers, forinstance Draugluin and Melkor.
It has even been seen stupid ainu claiming 'trigger Dude enters todo hunt dude' is illigal ...
I mean, if the mud can accept people who suck at English with open arms, surely they can accept people who are good with clients, no? :)
I never said that, did I?
This game isn't 'who will made best settings' game.
I'd have to agree with Lateralus. Using the arguement that it's unfair to those that don't use clients is a pretty weak arguement because //anyone// could get one. Those people who have learned what the clients do and have tweaked them to their benefit shouldn't be punished for it. On the otherhand, If you aren't at the computer to see what's going on then I would agree with punishment.
I've used a few different clients, but I've never used more than the mud trigger or more than the mud allowed for aliases. I can't say that I am a good player, but I think the if people had to use the same thing as other people, then we would find out who the truly good players. Clients sometimes make average players look good, but what matters to me is that a newbie doesn't get blown away by everything they see (i.e. aliases triggers scripts whatever else there is) and that they are able to reach a higher level quicker. I think this makes the game more interesting.
clients make the game playable - if you put enough effort in setting your client then it's ok to use it, everyone has the right to do it. It's lame to restrict people not to do something better than you just cause you can't do it.
My two cents - nothing is illegal:)
I think it really depends. I like using triggers to comm when I'm backstabbed and them to have substitutes and highlights, but mine are constantly watched by myself. Triggers which control your character, as said earlier, like hunting in Mirkwood and such should be illegal, because it is automating your character without you doing anything.
Myself, I use triggers, to comm backstabs and such, which I think are legal, and I suppose many would agree with me. Another god trigger that many assassins use is to party say they are hunting, but then again, it is being watched.
-Durad.
Maybe yes, Tilion.. But he'll get the opinions of the average mudders:P who reads that forum on that site? ainur?:P maybe
Kinda biased don't you think Tilion?
Noted. What I meant is that he probably wont get any feedback here from the administration.
This comment section just seems a lot more convenient than any forum i've ever been to. Thats why i dont like forums, and probably why people talk here more than they do the forums here. Just a lot more pleasing to the eye or something
One comment. Why didn't you post this on The Two Towers MUD forum 'General T2T Discussion'?
As long as it is not botting... and you're in front of the screen it's legal ;)
More defined rule(s) should definately be made if it's going to be such a big deal, in my opinion. I agree to a certain extent that letting your client do all the things for you while you are away is definately giving an unfair advantage over everyone else (aka: Cheating) But how is this going to be governed? It is almost damned near impossible to catch someone who is really talented and has a great set of aliases that he can fire off one by one and the one person who has kill automation scripts.... It really is a difficult area to be choosy on. It should be okay if you are AT your computer physically and can answer a tell fairly quickly if you are monitored. I don't see anything wrong really nowadays with someone sitting behind their keyboard making sure everything goes right... That is my few cents.
I like clients, I use mine a lot. But I'm still able to play without it. And I think that's where the key issue lies.
If you are unable to play or do ANYTHING without your settings, then you're too dependant on them.
I use one trigger, this one gets all the gold from the NPC Ive just killed, Although my client support infinite triggers, I find no real use for them. I do however believe that triggers work like reflekses in real life and should not be so frowned upon. The person who makes the trigger must know what to program, I do not see this as cheating, in some cases very lazy people do gain easy gold, but it comes with a risk of beeing easy killed. DAP trigger is not of my knowledge, forging triggers, hmm, I used alias there, a=do this and that, b= do that and this, that place is to scary to stay unvigilant at. Ultimately I thing warnings should be issued pre-nuke, everybody does not know every offence, or have read all the helpfiles, I didnt even know what a bot was before slytherin got nuked for it.
Game for the joy of it
Well then.
I think all should be allowed, until the client starts playing //for// someone - scripts that run you through Mirkwood to kill whatever, and even sell, deposit and heal.
DAP triggers, backstab triggers, and even some forging triggers are ok if you ask me.