none of the logs would be good enough by themselves, so I decided to make one decent sized log than 3 really short logs.
victory is hirgail's!
71 comments?! 72!!
Hey Whinny!(Winnetou if you didn't get it *snorts*)
When you coming back to the mud?
See you there buddy!
Er, yes. I remember now: pointless to hamstring with 60.
Well. The fact still stands that all these skills are made for killing each other. Hurray! Pkill pkill pkill! :)
Hmm...
Azmar, trade me Backstab for Camouflage?
All ERs can hamstring, but even with the skill trained to 60, it's impossible, so hamstring is pretty much BH only.
backstab should be made an assassin only skill and then the cooldown periods and stab limit removed
'help abilities' hunt and ambush are bountyhunter specific skills.
And yes we can ambush NPC's, however that NPC has to like everyone else, be seen entering a room.
So it limits us to slow hunting NPC's and Wandering NPC's.
You can't ambush NPCS, or at least back in the release you couldn't.
Also, hamstring is available to all? Since when? Or these are done by exploiting the shouldn't-be-there code ?
My main concern is the fact that you can ambush with absolutely any weapon you feel like. I'd like to see backstab return to weapons recently nerfed (HTHS, DRBA) and also the multiple backstab changes repealed. If this happened I think backstab would be perfectly fair in comparison to ambush, even with the extra weapons available for ambushing (maul sledge whip etc.)
And remember hamstring is a skill that is not unique to BH, but able to be done by all ERs!!! There lays the proof that its nerf must directly relate to parties or banging, not to damaging the effectiveness of the skill for the BH who still tries to solo...
If I hadn't been so impatient with my secondary skills I would also be a bounty hunter atm... Oh well I'll stick to soloing FRs as a sniffer :P
Formid, I'd post that petition for you, but the current system of needing 80 votes is a bit much...I'm hoping it gets dropped down.
i agree with formid's idea on how hamstring should be (in relation to parties).
boffo: there are probably about 5 active bountyhunters now...though i can only name about 4 off the top of my head.
I see nothing wrong with Bounty Hunters as is, I agree with Azrylar...however, hamstring in parties should be banned somehow..
Azmar pointed out the ease with which bounty hunters can slay their patrols, which slightly negates the point I'm about to make: Bountyhunters are useless in regions that are not controlled by their side... yet they are the ER SOLO killing profession. I agree they are incredibly fine tuned to do so, and that hamstring must be changed, but please lets look at the reality. Without camouflage, how effective are bountyhunters TRULY by themselves? Pretty shatty. That's why their ambushes rock and hamstring is incredible, its perfect balance for a perfectly unique profession... And their main usage is really to be between warring ER legions with bounties etc... not much that I have really seen since their release almost a year ago!
If it's 'so hard' to play bounty hunters... if their skills aren't imbalanced... why are so many ERs playing Bounty Hunters suddenly? Why is there so much bitching about how Bounty Hunters have been coded?
Where there's smoke, there's fire, my friends.
Erm sorry i ment 11-12 rooms
Ehm i`m not whining at all i play and if i get killed oh well happens :D if the fight was good geting killed isn`t too much of a bill to pay.
And coming back to the locking up thing well if i hit an alias to lock someone 4rooms from the place he attacked and i get stoped on my way to the lockup 3 times you must be or really laged to not get away or just plain stupid :D.
And for the petition it`s just to show some sort of a path for Valinor to follow, and i really tried to make it better then it is now but 90% of them people wouldn`t even read and give some pointers on how to make it better, we as the players no matter which side ERs or FRs are here to make the game fun and if something makes the game unplesent for many they should worke out a way to solve the problem, and i just can`t see new players that play the game of 3-2years or less do anything except for whining or using bugs they find instead of reporting them or making them go away, so i think the elderly players should help Valinor a bit.
My last shape on you said 'Good Shape' I wasn't continually shaping you and I didn't keep the log. Yeah I know you're a maxxed warrior (except for the HP/EP) and I did omit to tell people you were wearing mmail, however you're not the only person I've failed on, just the most recent in memory. Other people have broken me and I've been locked once I think.
I mainly ran, not because of the whip, but considering we were right outside MT, with several breaks right there (both battlepoints, sapphire sword, MT cellar, MT first gate) you'd have broken if you got low (and you probably had more healing than me) as such there was little point me staying and risking a guildmate of yours coming along and hunting :)
How can I read 50 long comments? More firearms = more fun! Don't complain, use them!
Formid, I respect you and if there was a way to make it impossible to hunt a hamstrung person unless you were the one who hamstrung them it would at least alleviate some of the imbalance. Second, I had fresh mmail and a dws on me and I am a warrior. Unless you have a very good weapon and a bit of luck you aren't going to do very much damage to a warrior with that eq on them solo without any specials. (in fact for a bounty hunter to do a 60hp ambush and then another 25hp in 6+ rounds is unusual). Sadly, I could not have been good shape by MT, my hp is lower than normal players for obvious reasons and therefore I would have been in average. And finally, you didn't run because your ass was getting kicked, I was empty handed, you ran when I said bitch and wielded whip.:P (ok close enough on that point so i will let that one go! hehe.)
[new] Date: 20. Dec, 2005, 10:25:08 By: Formid
>Well BH have only 2 big imbalance issue about the hamstring
>A. it`s basicly impossible to lock them up when you are hamstrung
>OK, not true, I attacked pounder the other day, just outside >pelargir. Without healing at all, when he hit MT he was in 'Good >Shape'. He could, if he was prepared have locked me easily (the >fact that when we hit MT I realised I was getting my ass kicked >hunted off and ran is not the point.
Erm, of course that is the point. 1) You have 4 times more time to realize that the guy is still in good shape and has a phial and is traveltoing to osgiliath and then going north or is heading into the middle of the plains and 2) You get 4 times more combat rounds before he actually reaches the lockup/backhunting party. Of course, if you happen to be incredibly careless or retarded, not even the most imbalanced ability will help you. But I assume you have some base level of common sense and survival instinct.
As for your idea, I think it is indeed a step in the right direction, but it is a way too small step.
>Well BH have only 2 big imbalance issue about the hamstring
>A. it`s basicly impossible to lock them up when you are hamstrung
OK, not true, I attacked pounder the other day, just outside pelargir. Without healing at all, when he hit MT he was in 'Good Shape'. He could, if he was prepared have locked me easily (the fact that when we hit MT I realised I was getting my ass kicked hunted off and ran is not the point.
>B. a BH can hamstring you and a party that is after you get`s the same
>bonus in number of attacks as the BH that usd hamstring
I have already agreed that hamstring with parties needs altering, and the simplest solution is something along the lines of.
For every combat round you are hamstrung, a check is made as to how many people are hitting you that round (in combat with you in the room you are in), and based on how many then a message something like the following 'With so many people after your blood, you ignore the pain in your legs and press on regardless' and the hamstring effect is gone. Pulling some numbers out of my ass lets say with 2 people there's a 20% chance of it happening, 3 people 50%, 4 people 90% and 5 people 100%. This is the third time I've suggested this, most people have agree'd it's a good solution (though the numbers may have to be tweaked), yet noone's petitioned it. Well, here's your chance, go for it.
Chewie, with regards to your petition, basically you are than making hamstring the same as fury (very similar end effect), which was what bountyhunters used to do before we got hamstring (and that was a secondary skill), so valinor probably wouldn't accept it.
hi nyx
I have made several suggestions as to how hamstring can be balanced, most people I've spoken to have agree'd with it, yet noone has posted a petition yet, I'm not going to because I just 'don't do' the whole petition thing.
And Pablo, I've never really played an assassin character (ever) except for one character I now have which has racked up quite a few ER kills, as such I wouldn't have much of a reputation as an assassin would I.
Oh my god. I couldn't bring myself to read through this. Why don't you guys go on the forums, start a topic, put some constructive arguments, make some suggestions on solutions on how to solve the problem, get mortal support, and with that go whine at Valinor? I never thought I'd say that, but leading a civilized discussion on the forums really does help.
Well BH have only 2 big imbalance issue about the hamstring
A. it`s basicly impossible to lock them up when you are hamstrung
B. a BH can hamstring you and a party that is after you get`s the same bonus in number of attacks as the BH that usd hamstring
Assassins are still more leathal then the sniffer and BH with the ability to stalk and backstab you at the tiem of theire choose and don`t argue about that please.
RP heh funny to hear about RP. Isn`t RP fighting Evils invading the free lands? I thought most FR guilds thema is about protecting are from Evil invaders.
And as for balancing i made a petition about hamstring propably it ain`t perfect and won`t be implemented but i think it gives a general idea on how to change hamstring, instead of slowing the target just make the fighting more often instead of 10rooms and attack just make it so the target and BH have an attack faze each 4 rooms or so, and it will make hamstring balanced so the 5 man party hunting you won`t get a hit on you every 3 rooms together with the solo BH that through hamstring at you.
OK enough stupid talk from this hairy ape :P.
Uh, they can do that?
my main beef with bounty hunters is their ability to ambush a patrol over and over again and kill it quickly with little to no risk to themself
Castamir said:
I absolutely can't fathom what could be the explanation for disallowing backstabs with HTHS. All the messages say about things not being pointy -- HTHS _is_ pointy. Size? If size did matter, you would be able to backstab with a mace; bonking someone in the head from behind is a good, proven strategy in RL.
Then please, un-nerf it for those of us who loved that sword :)
i also know you aren't a good assassin, but manage to rack up quite a few kills with imbalances as a bounty hunter. and no, don't take this complaining about bounty hunters towards you being good. as you're not the only bounty hunter and all of them seem to be doing the same 'skill' or 'nonskill' wise kills with these imbalances.
And pablo, no it doesn't even out, Bountyhunters get very hard done by to be honest, it's not an easy profession to play. However I like the way it is, and I've gotten used to our limitations and downsides, it makes life somewhat challenging, but you wouldn't know about that.
I give up, you guys won, congratulations your continual trolling worked. Continue to biasedly whine your ass off, and put up pathetic whinging petitions which will never pass no matter how many agedy votes you have because they are so badly one sided and poorly thought out with regards to balance.
I have offered, and tried to help you guys out with some of the things which ARE unbalanced (such as hamstring in parties etc). but you continue to say we're completely unbalanced and overpowered.
I suppose I should take it as a compliment, you can't believe I have any skill (I'm sure that'll provoke some sarcastic responses about clients), so you assume that it must be an overpowered profession. I must be doing something good then.
When the new battlepoint system comes out, won't it do away with these problems anyway?
it does not even out.
Filch, also, I said 'it was even', it's not if you count, bountyhunters have less Pro's and more Con's, however some of cour pro's are a bit nicer than some of yours, it evens out.
Filch, learn to read, I both said that assassins cannot camo whilst wearing anything lit, and that they could not hunt whilst blind.
However that is a double blow for Bountyhunters, as we cannot follow our target around.
Note the backstab restrictions for assassins [only one backstab per minute and a person/NPC can be backstabbed only once per a period of time (not sure how long)] which don't apply to BHs. 2 bountyhunters ambushing the same person, with a little of luck, can kill them instantly.
And Formid, if it's 'most of the time', it can't be 'like 50% of the time', most mean that it's more than 50% :P
* Cannot ambush whilst wearing anything glowing, meaning if you can't see in a room, or imbue (eaglesight) you're screwed.
It is actually not a con for assassin, because assassins have ways to go around it, ie: wearing the glowing object or wielding the glowing sword just before attacking, however you can't do that with ambush.
You make a lot of sense there, Formid, you really do.
I still have my views though. And as for your last suggestion, with all respect, NO. I'm not going to play an er... i'm a roleplayer, I dont enjoy pk. ER's are just waaaay wrong for me. So I guess thats that... new log, please.
I'd level one up if I had more time and will to actually do it. And it's only even match if you count the number, not the actual value (usefulness) of them. Also, it's not complete nor precise, for example:
* Cannot ambush someone who does not visibly enter the room you were in when you started ambushing that particular name, meaning that camo'd or darkness will cause a bountyhunters ambush to fail.
* Cannot ambush whilst wearing anything glowing, meaning if you can't see in a room, or imbue (eaglesight) you're screwed.
These two also apply to camo but you didn't include them in the assasins' cons list. And there's more but I dont have the time now, need to earn my living:/
Bottom line, it's natural that you defend your profession/your creations (referring to Castamir, cause I'm sure he had his part in creating the current BH - with ambush and hamstring). But please realize that in the long run imbalances do ruin the game for all sides involved thus by defending them, you're acting in your and the MUD community's worst interest.
Gawd, you guys.
Pro's Backstab + camouflage + assassin hunt:
* Can backstab at a time which you choose, meaning after a shape, or after you see the combat so you know how low someone is roughly going to be.
* Can move around whilst hidden, so you can follow your target for a long time and pick your best opportunity.
* Can hunt at any time, any target, well before you start your attack. * Can switch targets at a seconds notice if someone is in a party and you see that a member took more damage for instance.
* Can bypass many different types of obstacle (for instance BP guards) without swimming or going 'the long way around'
* Can talk whilst camouflaged
* Can lead parties whilst hunting
Pro's Hamstring + Ambush + bountyhunter hunt:
* Can ambush with any weapon
* Can ambush the same target multiple times
* Ambush uses less EP than camo
* Can slow a target down so that you get more combat rounds before they can break
* Automatically start to hunt your prey and get an instant backstab when they enter the room, meaning you can trigger a nearby break.
Con's Backstab + camouflage + assassin hunt:
* Can only backstab once, when in combat cannot re-backstab.
* Cannot remain hidden whilst in combat, meaning once you attack you cannot then follow your enemy around and wait until they get low once more.
* Cannot camouflage whilst wearing anything glowing, meaning if you can't see in a room, or eaglesight you're screwed.
* Cannot hunt someone if you cannot see.
Con's Pro's Hamstring + Ambush + bountyhunter hunt:
* Cannot move whilst hidden, also most shape's on targets will be seen if they do happen to be in the room.
* Cannot talk whilst hidden, making coordination extremely difficult, especially for instance asking for sense's to find out what shape someone is in.
* Cannot hunt someone who has not been previously ambushed
* Cannot be in a party at all whilst ambushing or hunting
* Cannot shape or look at target before initial attack without being seen (most of the time, sometimes you can it's someting like 50% of the time). Meaning that they could be at full HP (or in my case the other day, full HP wielding whip and wearing mmail)
* Cannot ambush someone who does not visibly enter the room you were in when you started ambushing that particular name, meaning that camo'd or darkness will cause a bountyhunters ambush to fail.
* Cannot ambush whilst wearing anything glowing, meaning if you can't see in a room, or imbue (eaglesight) you're screwed.
* Cannot hunt someone if you cannot see.
Now, counting all that up, I see it's a fairly even match of cons/pros. Both assassins and bountyhunters have skills which are good, and things which they are good at, however they also have their disadvantages. Each much choose their good time to attack to kill successfully. For assassins that may mean following around your target for a long time before you attack, but you can follow them around for a long time and find them at their lowest, and strike perfectly because you know they are low. For bountyhunters, random pkills in quests (which all become 'danger places' so people stop going unless it's a trap), or a LOT of finds until you find your target doing something he will get low at, and then ambushing them at a bottleneck is great, however if they can camo, or cast darkness, the chances get a hell of a lot lower.
Stop whining. If you think bountyhunters are so overpowered, level one up and try playing one for christ sakes it should be a walk in the park (And since you're whining, do your kills solo and not in bang parties with your only addition being hamstring like I do)!
Well, i'm whining.
I'm not whining, I'm trying to improve this game by pointing out the problems.
I've been ambushed more than a few times, and all i'm saying is this.
It does feel exactly like a backstab, but a guy wielding whip can do it to me. Thats not cool, since i cant do it back to him with whippie.
See my point, cast?
Backstab and ambush are, in reality, the same things. Both are some form of sneak attack... so if you're not letting a guy stab with a weapon, you ought not to let a guy ambush with it. Same-o same-o.
And um... this whole concept of whining. We're whining because we, as FR's, have a lot of our populace that dislike PK, and live for roleplay. Thats right, ROLEPLAY. Which means, for you who dont do it, is playing out a character's life. With ER's, its just flippin Counterstrike now. Each reboot is an iteration of the same thing, fight fight kill kill fight defuse bomb fight kill.
We're whining because all this penis measuring interferes with our roleplay. Enough explanation?
Your response: Go play another game then.
Our response: A lot of us ARE doing that.
*waves*
Uhm, have you ever fought a bountyhunter? From what you say, I clearly see that you don't know what you're saying.
One, what you just said. The ability to use some weapons which allow for a really powerful ambush - i.e. the sledge or maul, and the lack of such weapons on FR part.
Two, 'Ambush is also severely limited by the fact that you can't use it when you know that the enemy is vulnerable -- it can be used pretty much only for random attempts.' is wrong. You can have the person sensed and know his shape, you can go in, shape him, and go one room away and ambush. You can use ambush repeatedly on the same target if you're in some bounded area, or you can use ambush to be safe from the incoming party even if you have already started the fight with one/all of them (and to ambush them, too - you could even, if you had enough EP, keep huntbreaking and ambushing - one thing you cannot even try with an assassin, because after the backstab, you're left with weakass headbutts/feints).
Three, (which I'm not 100% sure of) two ambushing bountyhunters can do more damage in a single round (and a 100% coordinated one) then 5 assassins. Also, they can prevent the prey from huntbreaking by using the absurdly powerful hamstring.
Four, which is related to two but is not the same. Once an assassin is huntbroken, he's useless against the same target until they both quit or one of them dies. BH - is not.
Five, ambush is immediate once the prey enters the room - with a backstab, if you want to use it in that setting, you have to trigger to hunt and backstab then, which costs you a few rooms - and you don't have hamstring to prevent them from breaking, either! Thus aliasing through the triggered assassin to the nearest huntbreak/lockup is way easier then pulling the same trick against a BH.
True, if you look at the damage code made by both, they can be the same. But the whole setting and many other features make ambush greatly imbalanced.
Castarmir, of course backstab isnt so powerfull as ambush, and don't tell me it is, when its not true =) (and yes i have been ambushed few times)
//ambush (which is imbalanced relatively to backstab and other FR offensive abilities)//
Uhm... have you ever used it or been ambushed? From what you say, I clearly see that you don't know what you're saying.
Ambush is exactly as powerful as backstab. Why am I so sure? Because when backstab got changed, I personally made ambush use the very same code, just with different messages.
Ambush is also severely limited by the fact that you can't use it when you know that the enemy is vulnerable -- it can be used pretty much only for random attempts. On the other hand, ambush didn't suffer from the recent series of mad changes to weapons; unlike backstab, ambush has clear rules about what weapons can be used and what can't (ie, everything can :p).
I absolutely can't fathom what could be the explanation for disallowing backstabs with HTHS. All the messages say about things not being pointy -- HTHS _is_ pointy. Size? If size did matter, you would be able to backstab with a mace; bonking someone in the head from behind is a good, proven strategy in RL.
If all, you shouldn't be able to backstab with **daggers** if the enemy has any body armour.
I'll agree if I get camouflage and better potions
Anyway, hamstring should be removed or greatly nerfed, ambush should be restricted in a few ways (but giving the BHs the chance to hunt whom they should be able to hunt).
yeah and it sucks as a second skill :( hmm, I should start whining about that.
Yeah, probably. Then there's this kinky sense thing but it takes more time and people.
Kind of hard to find kills otherwise without camouflage don't you think?
And I wouldn't ever call a kill of the 'check out the place where they usually go low and ambush at the only exit if someone happens to be there' beautiful (although nothing wrong with doing that, especially that it is almost the only solo PK strategy now).
I got ambushed with deadly sledge for 93 hp yesterday. I totally agree with Myrddin, BHs have two absurdly imbalanced abilities - hamstring (which is absolutely imbalanced) and ambush (which is imbalanced relatively to backstab and other FR offensive abilities).
Yes the ambush is good but the fact remains that you can't continue to deal damage to the player since it will suck the rest of the fight. But if someone would give me an aim potion...;)
Maul did 104hp damage in one hit in this log. HTHS was never that powerful. Don't reply to something without understanding it fully, Pallasch. It makes you look ignorant.
As for the Maul sucking, well this log tends to disagree with you there Abborre. 104hp hit is incredibly unbalanced.
Btw, nice kills Tortuga
The maul sucks ass, I can never hit a player after my ambush with it. If the target is nd he'll still get away most likely, even hamstrung. HTHS hit often/hard even after the backstab. Maul is nowhere near as good as HTHS was when it comes to playerkilling. It also weighs alot and you need ALOT of room to pack it, hths is sheathable.
HTHS wasn't powerful? You're either incredibly ignorant, or incredibly ignorant.
Its nice to see that someone has bought stock in Nerf from Hasbro.
The board of directors must be extremely happy about this deal.
This log is so awesome because it shows how great the balance is in the game now.
Since backstab is so strong we have to nerf it weapon by weapon until the only thing you can stab with is a wooden sword, and even then only one person can land the stab, the other people aren't allowed to backstab for some unexplained unthematic reason.
At the same time since ambush is so weak we have to allow multiple ambushes by seperate people on one target, multiple ambushes by the same person on one target, and ambush with any weapon including a giant maul which usually takes 2-3 rounds to even swing.
In case you didn't pick up, this is bullshit. I don't mind not being able to backstab with a hammer. But at the same time I doubt you're going to be able to jump out of hiding and surprise someone with a giant maul that takes about 10 seconds to swing over your head.
Yeah I'm whining. So what? ER's whine and things get fixed, a prime example is HTHS (which wasn't even that powerful in the first place) not being useable for backstabs anymore. And yet I can assure you that if I whine about this maul it's not going to be changed, even though I'm guessing those ambushes did over 70hp damage in a single hit.
Beautiful, god damn beautiful kills Tortuga. Excellent to see a bounty hunter in action, using prime timing and super powerful ambushes to bring down your targets! Bravo. That maul _hurts_ :D
Hey Zicex!
<3 Zicex
I thought 'pathethic' was spelt like pathetic..
zicex: failed hamstring
Nice, I guess.
Your pathethic attempt to hamstring Rekkless is easily foiled.
Typo?
i had it in the 90's but i keep dying. i also have about 15k banked, so i have been golding just not using the gold.
Heh, maybe if you spent some time golding instead of being a pkwhore, you'd have better stats/skills, and wouldn't fail all those ambushes.