Place to bitch about draugluin nuking me
Sounds like a great time! :)
I tripped in a ditch and broke my ankle :P And... threw up in my backseat.
Care to share, Pallasch? Sounds promising.
What I dont like about this is that there were NUMEROUS times that the trigger abuse file was put up and claimed it would be strongly enforced, by other poers than just draugluin, yet we all have seen numerous logs here which show this exact form of trigger abuse.
Why was it ignored then, and now unacceptable? Im not saying it should be acceptable, but what has finnaly changed that valinor wishes to enforce its rules?
It did, plus some other unexpected things :(
Rauko, the bane of swedes. :D
Hey, Pallasch, did your plan work out?
Mikah, I ate dinner with my parents and my girlfriend, then we (no, not including my parents) went over to a friend's who was throwing a party. At around 1 we went to a club and partayed until 6 or so.
Happy new year, Deb! Don't get bored again!
99% of the whining was done after the nuke, like i've said previously i responded to the warning with a 3 line mail disputing the warning and draug must have been pms'ing that day cause he nuked me for it
I went to a party Sarys, what did you do?
Well, if Rekkless did what he did before the rule being changed(and the rules get in life once they're announced), there is nothing to discuss about. Half of the nuke reason was whining though, so it might've been justified. But nuking someone for whining when he's right is a bit harsh IMHO :P
Happy New Year Deb :)
So Draugluin changed a rule to fit the punishment he'd already given. I don't see anything new from him here. This is fairly standard from him.
Rauko was fast on the red button, Baklen, I'll agree on that, but he didn't engage in the bizarre, personal conflicts that characterize a goodly portion of Draugluin's interactions on the game. Also, Rauko would admit a mistake and apologize if he did/said something while in a bad mood. I remember he once threatened to nuke Ohtar for something, complaining to Rauko or some such thing, but later apologized for saying it and explained he was in a bad mood at the time because he'd just had to nuke someone who was a close friend in the game.
There is just no comparing the two different administrators. It's like comparing apples and mushrooms. Both are usually edible but make a mistake on the latter and it could be toxic. Having seen how the mud existed under both administrators I think someone made that very mistake and left a toxic personality at the helm. But who cares? It's just a game :p
Happy New Year ;)
(my resolution: never read mud-related stuff again, even when bored)
<3 Pounder.
But at least it wasn't based on the mood rauko was in! Rauko was harsh sure, but at least he knew what he was doing and didn't have anything to prove.
Hate to say it, But Rauko pulled the trigger faster than anyone:)
Im guess you whined about the warning and he nuked you? You should know Draugluin by know, don't annoy him on a bad day or you get a nuke. I've learnt to like, enver talk to him and I havent been getting nuked as much lately.
Read the start of my comment. Rekkless abused the trigger before the rule was changed, so why would he be punished according to a rule implemented after his act?
fine, change the rule, i dont care, BUT FUCKING TELL PEOPLE BEFORE YOU START NUKING THEM, if the news post was prior to my action i'ld deserve the nuke, because it wasn't, this whole thing is bullshit and only goes to show draugluin has no clue what he's doing
'...That said, the rule could change,...'
From a comment section in the past (It matters because the same rule was in application as the rule when Rekkless abused the trigger he got nuked for (with that I don't mean that that the same rule applies at the moment)
'Date: 11. Jun, 2005, 1:47:34 By: Draugluin
Further...
A lot of people could be helped by taking a little more responsibility for what YOU do, and a little less expecting the Power of Law to help you out. To me, this is an incredibly ludicrous example: The trigger could have been turned off at many, many, many, many...did I mention many?...points. It could have not been set when merely running through the plans.
That said, the rule could change, if it were better to do something else. Feel free to think up the something else, and petition it, or mention it to me personally (tells, mails, 'help law').
Personally, I am loathe to see our stance change - and not just because it creates an enourmous amount of work for me (it will). I do not want to have to draw the line and say 'its not illegal to try and lose an assassin by tricking them, but you get deleted for trying to trick your victim'. I do not want to have to worry, even more than already, about what people are doing with their LOCAL clients.
The less I need to be concerned with what someone is doing on their computer that I both can't see, and don't want to see, the better I can make sure nobody is cheating you.
Yes, that means you must pitch in by not making yourself blatantly vulnerable, failing to react, and failing to plan ahead to the consequences of using software YOU choose and WE have nothing to do with. It means you have to be responsible for yourself.'
Let's see Scatha's response now:
'I'm sorry, but that's just pulled out of your ass. You're saying that in the face of someone wanting to kill them, and them being idle and thus safe from attacking, they really want to involuntarily perform a command to make them vulnerable without the typist's knowledge.
Sorry, not gonna fly. It's like saying hackers are justified in breaking into people's computers and destroying their data just because the person isn't savvy enough to patch their systems. Just because someone has a retarded trigger doesn't give any other player the right to abuse it - triggers are there to ultimately help. You're acting like a child who'sbeen told he can't have a cookie.'
From a comment by Rekkless
'You are just tricking them into an action that they specified but would normally only do in other circumstances'
I'm sorry, but that's just pulled out of your ass. You're saying that in the face of someone wanting to kill them, and them being idle and thus safe from attacking, they really want to involuntarily perform a command to make them vulnerable without the typist's knowledge.
Sorry, not gonna fly. It's like saying hackers are justified in breaking into people's computers and destroying their data just because the person isn't savvy enough to patch their systems. Just because someone has a retarded trigger doesn't give any other player the right to abuse it - triggers are there to ultimately help. You're acting like a child who's been told he can't have a cookie.
[new] Date: 31. Dec, 2005, 1:59:31 By: Pallasch
I plan on drinking an entire bottle of Jack Daniels and then passing out. Maybe find a girl who's too drunk for her own good :P
I know you don't care, but I did that exact thing last week!
(Shit I forgot, no I did'nt...as im 12 and never leave my house . . . .)
BY draugluin 'IF you are a person who has claimed the rule was not properly publicized...Logon, or read, or something. The helpfile was updated, and announced. I even saw Ketan and others mocking it on the comm line, saying (basically) 'Who the hell -wouldn't- understand this, its written like for a 5 year old.'' Draugluin, if this happened AFTER the news post then yeah i would deserved warning/nuke. BUT THIS HAPPENED WEEKS AGO. Fucking retard, i'm not psychic. I dont know whats going on in your brain before you puts a news out. You have always been ok with using these types of triggers before. Hell, when we used to play together back in Black Hands you did this stuff yourself, including using idle triggers to keep from logging off.
Gaul, i tried to discuss the situation with draugluin, he nuked me for one short mail and then temp banned me and silenced every alt i had because he doesn't have the balls to take responsibility for his actions even to the extent of discussing them with the affected party. His handling of people has been a longstanding joke and he has alienated a large majority of the mud. These and other issues are why I feel that Draugluin needs to be removed as a power or learn how to communicate with people in an effective manner. His 'job' as PoL is to enforce rules and the most important part of this is in preventing the rules from being broken in the first place. This was an excellent example of ainur inconsistency and laxity causing what should have been a minor issue at best. 'Draugluin tells you: Hey, read new help file for triggers, policies changed', 'You tell draugluin: NP, wont do it again' instead of a major incident which will probably lead to my leaving the mud entirely (which i will do if Rekkless isn't reinstated). Another responsibility of the PoL is to punish rulebreakers. Gotta give Draugluin an A+++ here, he pulls the trigger faster than anyone. The 3rd primary responsibility of the PoL is reviewing disputed punishments objectively. When your job is to punish people your going to get a lot of feedback, some positive but obviously primarily negative. Draug's skin is so thin you could read a book through it. Not only did he not respond to my mail. He also summarily took me from one bullshit warning to a bullshit nuke instead of simply replying to the mail and leaving the warning if he really felt it was justified. Draug gets the big fucking F on this one. Based on this I will soon be introducing a petition to call for his removal as PoL for drastically underperforming his position over a long period of time. Though he does volunteer he does have a responsibility to the users of the mud to conduct himself in a professional manner as he accepted the responsibility that was offered to him. If he cant handle it, then he should resign. If he wont resign, he should be forced out.
I've been playing a bit more lately. Enough to see the 'There is news!' on screen regarding this. From some of the comments, it seems Rekkless was banned over something prior to the new news? If that's the case, and that was all, it wouldn't be fair to nuke. If not though, there was warning.
But whining doesn't do much good. I don't know how things work in the politics of Two Towers MUD, but I know if you cry a lot and cause trouble in real life you lose a lot of the leniancy you might otherwise have gained. Why didn't you just discuss the situation with an ainur?
I plan on drinking an entire bottle of Jack Daniels and then passing out. Maybe find a girl who's too drunk for her own good :P
Still no one has told me what their goddamned plans for newyears are. Better not be mudding.
Er, yeah. Another one-time appearance for facts.
---
IF you are a person who has claimed the rule was not properly publicized...Logon, or read, or something. The helpfile was updated, and announced. I even saw Ketan and others mocking it on the comm line, saying (basically) 'Who the hell -wouldn't- understand this, its written like for a 5 year old.'
The offending player was given a warning for this incident (which I/we feel was/is lenient, considering the clarity of the rule) and the offender then proceeded to excessively whine, sort of like Baklen said. It doesn't matter what was said, but if you want to be naive enough to buy that it was all super nice, then hah. As if I WANT to have to listen to this sort of stuff when its not deserved. Please.
You, too, can expect to be punished if you break the trigger rule. Oh, and when you try to tell me 'but i've been here for years, i should get special treatment!' expect it to not work. It'd be nice, if knowing that, you didn't even try.
Finally, nobody was sitebanned. The offender's ip was temporarily blocked to prevent the 8th continuation of the following:
Logon alt. Complain on comm (fine). Suggest people are Nazis/slander randomly (not fine). Spam the hell out of people with lots of whining via tells (not fine) even after being asked to stop, calm down, or something.
OF COURSE there are those of you here reading this (or writing in these comments) that don't care, or want to believe I was wrong and evil. Thats fine. This is, afterall, designated as a 'place to bitch'.
Bye!
the mudmail wasn't bad at all, i didn't go off on him or anything just disputed the warning and said he should work on more important things
I want to know what that 3 line mudmail said.
Thats the random variable, if it was slander, then by god you probably got nuked for that not the trigger:)
Sorry to see you nuked though.
Yes that would be a very good idea right now, because you have some mails waiting for you, and I won't accept any real life excuses, ser!
But anyway, I can understand Draugluin changed his mind about it, yet that would have been a good idea to let the mud be informed (and in that case rekkless) before taking action.
1. Intended action under wrong circumstances:
me: trigger Saurus climbs a tree todo climb tree
Saurus: emote climbs a tree
2. Intended action under wrong circumstances:
Alyath: trigger You killed todo get all from corpse
Rekkless: say You killed
3. Unintended action:
#action {Without warning, %1 stabs you from behind!} {$Just got stabbed by $1 on $hp hp $ep ep!}
Dumbass says: Without warning, ;quit; stabs you from behind!
Tell me, what is the difference between 1. and 2.?
But, returning to your nuking... While Draug has full rights to enact such rules, things I am unhappy about are:
* suddenly setting a much harsher interpretation of a rule hardly anyone knows about, without warning people beforehand
* not following the part he set himself: the victim who didn't kept his triggers secure is supposed to receive a written warning. If I recall correctly, this part was even written IN ALL CAPS, in the help file or the news post, I can't check without logging on and I can't log because if I come in even for a second I won't get out for many hours. And that would be a very bad idea right now :p
Nagash, abusing someone's client through their triggers is something entirely different. You're forcing them into an action that they in no way intended to take. Setting off a trigger that someone has intentionally set up and WANTS to fire whenever they see that specific string of characters is entirely different. You are just tricking them into an action that they specified but would normally only do in other circumstances. Regardless, this has never been something that people were warned/nuked for before and for me to get a warning and then nuked over a 3 line mudmail is total shit. If draugluin has the balls to defend his decision i'ld encourage him to post that mail here and say what in it was so awful that it deserved a nuke. I dont remember what it was exactly but it was something like this, 'This has never been illegal before and making me responsible for it is bullshit, it shouldn't be illegal in the first place as people need to be responsible for themselves because you're not a damn babysitter, shouldn't you be working on fixing the damn game anyway, get your priorities straight' or some such
Speaking of warnings, Nagash. *coughs* ;)
Nagash darling:P
help triggers
'
...
From the nothing-is-ever-simple-department:
using 'emote' to attempt to evade (by 'faking out') someone
attempting to kill or steal from you, is allowed.
'
It's not a new rule.
Around three years ago, several clowns used to 'say Without warning, ;quit; stabs you from behind' to loot people's equipment. Thus, abusing triggers in this way was made a nukeable offense -- WITH THE VICTIM GETTING AN AUTOMATIC WARNING.
However, I have two problems with this nuking:
1. I'm not happy with pulling a valid but next to unknown rule, and using it with a much harsher interpretation that before (stopping someone's automaton, as opposed to actively cracking someone's script and exploiting it to take control over the victim's character). In such cases, a _verbal_ warning and/or a post first would be expected.
2. For to consistency, I hereby demand all people who used emotes against my triggers (something that was popular before the pkilling game was turned into mindless 'who reaches a battlepoint/friendly city first') to be nuked. And I mean all of them -- I can provide complete logs of all my sessions since 2001 or so. The PoL can grep for '[A-Z][a-z]{2,9} fades into the shadows.\e\[0mTriggered! Doing: ' (I can provide him with an incomplete list of alternate messages), and then nuke every bastard who escaped this way.
You could also say that: 'Constitutiones tempore posteriores potiores prioribus.'
Lex retro non agit, eh?
Well, I am still confused how he can be sitebanned. Sitebans are in the past reserved for people who are one of the following...
Constitute a very strong threat of cheating in the future.(which if you look at dream and winnetou, they should have been sitebanned for a lot worse and constant MP issues)
If they are doing something unlawful with the towers site.
Makes you really wonder what alt he killed that got so pissed about dying. Also makes you wonder why there is no such thing as consistency anymore here. I wish rauko or melkor were still in charge, at least they were balanced and did have such a need to show how powerful they are on the towers (which ironically makes those who do it look very immature, weak and clownlike). The current law admin have no true confidence and are clearly not people you would want in any sort of managment role (be it the towers or RL). 'You don't fear me.... EAT THIS *NUKE*' is about all they understand.
Seems like it's nukeable as of now, including any past discrepancies. Which is bullshit?
Why were you sitebanned?
Its retroactively nukeable.
hey, what's up. What are your plans for newyears?
damnit
It seems that it is illegal as of now.
I'm confused now. Triggers abuse is lame IMHO, but is it legal or not?
If there had been a news or some warning to the change in policy then guess what? I wouldn't have done it. But to suddenly punish someone for something that has always been legal and THEN change the rules is fucking bullshit.
Amusingly enough Rekkless' trigger abuse was before the additional note in help triggers and handled afterwards, I don't see how he differs from the guys in that log.
so long as you aren't abusing client code then setting off peoples triggers has never been illegal, hell back in the day having more than one trigger was what was illegal...
This is the post by Draugluin that jaron was referencing and that addendum to trigger was not filed until AFTER I had done this...
'Further...
A lot of people could be helped by taking a little more responsibility for what YOU do, and a little less expecting the Power of Law to help you out. To me, this is an incredibly ludicrous example: The trigger could have been turned off at many, many, many, many...did I mention many?...points. It could have not been set when merely running through the plans.
That said, the rule could change, if it were better to do something else. Feel free to think up the something else, and petition it, or mention it to me personally (tells, mails, 'help law').
Personally, I am loathe to see our stance change - and not just because it creates an enourmous amount of work for me (it will). I do not want to have to draw the line and say 'its not illegal to try and lose an assassin by tricking them, but you get deleted for trying to trick your victim'. I do not want to have to worry, even more than already, about what people are doing with their LOCAL clients.
The less I need to be concerned with what someone is doing on their computer that I both can't see, and don't want to see, the better I can make sure nobody is cheating you.
Yes, that means you must pitch in by not making yourself blatantly vulnerable, failing to react, and failing to plan ahead to the consequences of using software YOU choose and WE have nothing to do with. It means you have to be responsible for yourself.'
Things change. Used to you would get warned for talking about nuked/suicided/nonexisting alts on the comm, now you are allowed to do so.
Speaking of trigger abuse:
Speaking of 'has died' trigger abuse (only you meant something absolutely different with that)
http://logs.dyndns.dk/viewer.php/9119
In the comments of the same log we have Draugluin defending this, I guess a single additional note in 'help triggers' means a lot.
You were the only person to try me solo in last 3-4 months (and almost succeed too), sucks that you are gone too.
Aww, you got nuked... cry about it! Seriously, people who get so bent up about this game need to step outside, breathe the air, relax, and then come back with a smile on their face.
God damn you're gone for good - Inspiration to me with my ER playerkilling man, thanks for the cool tips with healers etc... I completely agree with your last comment, and its a just sad its turned this way. I relate to Fealome's legendinfo, the magic is gone, and its not coming back. For now I'll make my own fun trying to keep up the ER v FR battle from both sides, but with allies/enemies like you and all the other skilled experienced players dropping like flies, I know I won't be around too much longer either... Its just staying in character and helping newbies, trying to let them enjoy what this place still has to offer before its too late, and trying to have a small influence on the newer player base to maybe change it for the good is all that is left.
in fact, the only thing that could save this mud now is Draugluin choke and die in RL =/
By the way i've been sitebanned now so i doubt i'll be back, to my friends, its been a helluva time and thanks for all the memories. To my enemies, hell, you've all been friends at one time or the other. Have fun and peace out!
This administrations inability to relate to people and deal with criticism both constructive and otherwise is the primary reason for the current decline. Until these individuals have a change of heart or are replaced I have little hope for the recovery of the Two Towers as they continue to alienate and drive out old players while simultaneously creating a hostile environment for newer players. Given that it is not an option to go back to the mud of 2000 (though I for one do enjoy the new changes) it is critical to have a working relationship with your playerbase to determine the best course of action and then proactively seek out feedback prior to implementing said action. Many of the conflicts between player and ainur could have been prevented simply by Valinor living up to the responsibility they accepted and running the game as you would an office in regards to internal communication. Without a proper forum for communicating and explaining upcoming changes and then at least responding to the feedback in a manner that lets us know it was considered carefully and rejected we will continue to see escalated conflict between people who genuinely care about the game and those who run it. While I am not about to argue that ainur are not integral to the operation of the game, it would be nothing without players like me who have poured our emotional energy and time into developing the relationships that truly define what towers is, or i should say was. A living, breathing community build of 1000's of relationships between individual players, clans, and guilds and even (in the far past) valinor.
Alright alright it was intended
Sorry to see this happen to you man-- Mud is really self destructing if they not only make foolish changes, but recklessly drive away their best players, no pun intended.
Anyway I got nuked for arguing a warning I recieved for saying 'has died' during a kill to interrupt a person's travelto. Don't even remember who it was some random newbie. This has never been illegal before and i've been doing it for the last 6 years to anyone stupid enough to leave bad triggers on. This is something entirely separate from abusing a persons client triggers to take control of their character as it did not force them to do anything other than WHAT THEY SPECIFIED they wanted to occur when they saw those words. Anyway, regardless of whether the initial warning was justified or not, getting a nuke for a 3 line mail with little to no profanity when I'ld had no prior warnings and was currently arguing my first warning is total crap.
Sorry about the formatting, this is why i dont post logs